Lookout Landing: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Last Jannero Pargo Post Bar-right-arrows



Again With The Myths?

Nolan Ryan is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Ryan piled up the strikeouts, but he also piled up the walks - he had a career BB/9 of 4.7, and twice issued more than 200 free passes in a single season. His career ERA+ of 112 doesn't even rank in the top 250 all time. Other pitchers with a career 112 ERA+: Bartolo Colon, Wilson Alvarez, Al Leiter, and Orel Hershiser. Ryan was incredibly durable and frequently dominant, but one of the best he was not.

The key to a successful team is pitching and defense. The value of a run scored is essentially the same as that of a run prevented. Just ask the Yankees. Or the Mets. Or the Phillies. Or pretty much any of those Cleveland teams from the 1990's. While having the best offense in the league isn't any guarantee to get you to the playoffs, neither is having the best pitching staff, and at the end of the day it's just as good to beat someone 7-6 as it is to beat them 2-1.

The playoffs are a crapshoot. The idea behind this cliche - that the October sample size is so small that pretty much anything can happen - is perfectly fine; even the best teams in baseball have the odds stacked overwhelmingly against them. But that doesn't mean it's all a matter of luck. I can't find the article(s) for my life, but it's been shown that teams with good defenses, strikeout pitchers, and/or aggressive contact lineups tend to succeed more often in the postseason than their peers. The '01 Diamondbacks had the two dominant aces. The '02 Angels had the aggressive lineup, awesome defense, and shutdown bullpen. The '03 Marlins had the lineup and reliable ace. And so on. There's no way to guarantee a championship, as anyone can win in any given year, but there are ways to better your odds. And remember, once you're in October, depth doesn't mean anything. If you're looking to win a championship, you damn sure better have stars at the top.

The trade deadline is exciting and full of movement. I fall for this one every year. The biggest names to be traded on July 31st over the past few seasons: Eric Gagne, Octavio Dotel, Greg Maddux, Julio Lugo, Matt Lawton, Kyle Farnsworth, Steve Finley, Esteban Loaiza, Jose Contreras, Aaron Boone, Sidney Ponson, Bobby Howry, John Thomson, Ugueth Urbina, Pedro Astacio, Rondell White, and Al Martin. The big Nomar trade back in 2004 is literally the only deal involving a superstar to go down on deadline day in a long long time, and even then Nomar was fighting injury (he only played 81 games). Significant trades do get made during the year, but by the time July 31st rolls around, odds are all the major names are staying put where they are.

Mark Buehrle is a wuss. Wrong.

The 2001 Mariners were built on pitching, defense, and fundamentals. The 2001 Mariners scored the most runs in the league and also had the highest BA and OBP despite playing half their games in Safeco. On top of that, their team defensive efficiency was a staggering 23 points ahead of second place. This team was built on an unstoppable offense and one of the best defenses in recent history. I don't know why its lineup never gets the respect it deserves. Its total .283 EqA is tied with the 2003 Red Sox for the best baseball's seen in seven years.

The 2002 Angels won the World Series with pitching, defense, and fundamentals. In 16 playoff games, the 2002 Angels scored 101 runs and allowed 81. They drilled 24 homers. Their starters had a cumulative ERA of 5.38. They scored 95 runs in their 11 wins. These guys won the Series because of hitting, John Lackey, Troy Percival, and Francisco Rodriguez.

Dave Roberts' steal in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS was the turning point in the series. WPA boost of Millar's leadoff walk: +12.4%. WPA boost of Roberts' steal: +11.5%. WPA boost of Mueller's tying single: +25.6%. It was an important stolen base, to be sure, but it wouldn't have happened were it not for Millar's walk, and it wouldn't have mattered were it not for Mueller's single.

Jim Rice should be in the Hall of Fame. Not only did Jim Rice fail to compile the big round numbers that the HoF generally requires for admittance, but he also took liberal advantage of his home ballpark - away from Fenway, Rice had a career .789 OPS. For good measure, he also didn't play great defense or contribute very much on the basepaths. Admit Jim Rice and you might as well admit Chili Davis and Ellis Burks. And do you think they're two of the best players in baseball history?

Individual batter vs. pitcher matchups contain valuable information. As shown in The Book, these matchup statistics basically contain zero predictive value. Just because Adrian Beltre is 6-10 against Shaun Marcum with two home runs doesn't mean he's likely to keep hitting him in the future.

Young players are unreliable and inconsistent, while veterans are steady and dependable. The average rookie with 50+ plate appearances has hit .271/.328/.420 so far this year, against a league-average batting line of .268/.336/.422. Meanwhile, the average rookie with 40+ IP has a 4.64 ERA (4.90 for starters, 3.99 for relievers), against a league-average ERA of 4.46 (4.61 for starters, 4.19 for relievers). It should be noted that when people talk about this alleged phenomenon, they're usually talking about position players, not pitchers. After taking ten randomly selected everyday rookies and writing down their monthly OPS splits, I came up with an average monthly percent standard deviation of 18.7%. Repeating the process for ten randomly selected everyday veterans, I came up with an average monthly percent standard deviation of 18.3%. It's hardly a perfect study, but the point is this - veterans have just as much in-season statistical fluctuation as rookies do. Gary Sheffield had a .675 OPS in April, a 1.042 OPS between May and June, and a .733 OPS ever since. Veteran consistency? These bits of conventional wisdom concerning young players have to stop.

Late-season momentum carries over into the playoffs. I'm speaking on a team basis here, not individual players. It really doesn't. Check out this article by Studes at THT. Between 1969-2004, World Series champions actually had a slightly lower September winning percentage than the average postseason team. Remember 2000? The Yankees went 13-18 after September 1st, then went on to win the Series. A year later, Arizona went 10-11 in September and did the same thing. On the flip side, the 1977 Royals went 25-5 after September 1st and didn't do anything in the playoffs. Momentum doesn't seem to make a difference. Once you get into the division series, everything starts from scratch.

Over the past several decades, the talent pool has been diluted by expansion. Since 1950, the population of the United States has doubled, the league has been integrated, and both Latin America and Asia have turned into Major League breeding grounds. With every passing day, there's more available talent in the world than ever before. Dilution is a crock.

Closers fall apart in non-save situations. This one's part myth, part fact. Closers don't fall apart, but they do perform worse. Between 2002-2005, the top closers in baseball put up a 2.51 ERA when slamming the door and a 3.26 ERA in non-save situations. Good, but worse. About a month ago, Kevin Hench took a similar look on a smaller scale and found that this year's top ten closers saw a 26-point ERA increase in non-save situations. While it's hardly the suicide to bring your closer into a non-save situation that so many fans think it is, there is some truth to the sentiment.

A walk's as good as a hit. This is a cheap cop-out way to close, but I didn't want to finish on the non-save-situation point. Unless there's a guy on first, a walk doesn't push anyone around the bases. The difference in run value is .15. The same basic idea goes for the old saying that a hit and a steal's as good as a double. It's not. But I don't have to explain this to you.

0 recs | Comment 46 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

Mark Buehrle
He kills bears and likes to play slip and slide on the tarp during rain delays.

He's on the far end of the badass bell curve.

by Gomez on Sep 25, 2007 12:26 AM PDT   0 recs

My respect for the man just doubled tonight.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Sep 25, 2007 1:04 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This one is hard.
"Nolan Ryan is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Ryan piled up the strikeouts, but he also piled up the walks - he had a career BB/9 of 4.7, and twice issued more than 200 free passes in a single season. His career ERA+ of 112 doesn't even rank in the top 250 all time. Other pitchers with a career 112 ERA+: Bartolo Colon, Wilson Alvarez, Al Leiter, and Orel Hershiser. Ryan was incredibly durable and frequently dominant, but one of the best he was not."

Really hard.  I'll be the first person to say "walk rate is king", but every once so often there's a historical oddity that blows everything out of the water.

Even if he was a better Kip Wells or Daniel Cabrera, he still threw seven no hitters.  Even if you don't like the no hitter or think it's an overrated accomplishment, it's still impressive enough that Nolan managed to do it not just 7 times, but nobody else in major league history is even close.

Fluke and luck may have been what Nolan was born with.  And in the end, can you hold it against him?  I know I'd abuse my good fortune if I could.

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Sep 25, 2007 2:43 AM PDT   0 recs

Mark Buehrle is a wuss. Wrong.
That's like a gift from god for the Dugout.

by JI on Sep 25, 2007 7:42 AM PDT   0 recs

Wait a second...
"The same basic idea goes for the old saying that a hit and a steal's as good as a double. It's not."

I agree.  In some cases, they're better.

These are great season-ending stocking stuffers, even if you are fudging with the definitions of "myths" vs "clichés."

:-D

пар горячий развяжет язык...

by LouKlimchock HoF on Sep 25, 2007 7:47 AM PDT   0 recs

I wonder if Buehrle is a fan of The Simpsons
''Once-in-a-lifetime experience, especially going with Jimmy,'' Buehrle said Sunday. ''When we got out there, the guy said we could hunt separate. But my main thing is I wanted to be in the stand with Jim Thome. I turned down hunting by myself to be with him.''

Moe: You ever been hunting before, there, Barty?
Bart: No. Something about a bunch of guys, alone, together in the woods. Seems kinda gay.
("Homer's Phobia" Episode Number: 168, Season Num: 8)

by JoshC on Sep 25, 2007 8:05 AM PDT   0 recs

You knew you'd get the most flack for Nolan Ryan
The problem is the guy pitched for 27 years, Jeff, and in an era where pitchers didn't get praise for pitching 4 or 5 complete games in a season.  He's the epitome of the effective workhorse (playing for part of the time in an era where the workhorse was more common, I'll grant you).  Yes, his walk rate was high, but he was a strike-out machine.  Add to that that in the 2 years you cite of 200 walks - he pitched 332.7 and 299 innings respectively.  He also had 26 and 22 complete games in those years - where those in the modern era have their walk rates extrapolated, Ryan actually gave you a pretty good idea of how many walks/9 because he pitched close 9 per in close to half of them.  He also averaged over nine strikeouts per/9 innings 14 years out of his 27 years in the league, with his rate dropping below 8 only once.  

There is no superstat that I recognize as encompassing the best player at any position.  There are multiple (old and new) stat categories for a reason.  And if you want to talk about durable workhorse strike-out pitchers, Nolan Ryan is near the top of that conversation, don't you think? I think Roger Clemens has a pretty good edge, but can you imagine Nolan Ryan starting the season several months late every year?  What is your criteria for being a top pitcher?  We recognize Hank Aaron as the best home-run hitter of all time (putting Bonds aside), so you have to at least concede that Ryan was the best strike-out pitcher of all time, don't you?

Plus he did lead the league in adjusted ERA+ 2 years in his career. That's something.

An interesting side-note, he led the league in wild pitches 11 years.  I realize that doesn't support my point, but it's a cool stat nonetheless.

"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 8:06 AM PDT   0 recs

My criteria for being a top pitcher
is that a guy should be excellent at preventing runs from scoring. Aside from 1981 - in which he didn't top 150 innings - Ryan wasn't.

Nolan Ryan was extremely durable and racked up a ton of strikeouts. But to be one of the best pitchers of all time, you just need to do a way better job of keeping runs off the board.

by Jeff on Sep 25, 2007 8:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So are you arguing
that Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher of all time?
"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 8:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I believe so, yes.
And in case you disagree because Pedro hasn't been durable enough, then Clemens is next down the list.

by Jeff on Sep 25, 2007 8:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't
think that Pedro is the best pitcher of all time, but I don't know if I've settled on one person.  I'd have to make a more objective analysis of the stats, including coming up with the 4 or 5 stat categories that combine to make what I consider the best.  Sandy Koufax, for his brief run, is in the conversation for me, with some other guys.  

By the way, the next on the list after Pedro are actually Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson and then Dan Quisenberry.  But certainly Clemens deserves to be discussed as one of the best of all time.  

"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 8:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

On the list of
Adjusted ERA+, that is, not my list or necessarily yours.
"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 8:41 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Quisenberry was a reliever
and neither Grove nor Johnson had to face anything close to the amount of talent that Clemens has.

We can disagree on who deserves to be part of that "best ever" group - God knows people have been doing it forever - but the fact of the matter is that Nolan Ryan shouldn't get mentioned.

by Jeff on Sep 25, 2007 8:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I know who Quisenberry and Grove are
it is just further to my point that one stat category (ERA+) is not sufficient to cover all the aspects (inlcuding subjective valuation of one skill over another) that go into people deciding who they think are the "best" pitchers of all time. In some ways, after you agree what the proper ingredients are, it's like arguing over which pasta dish is superior.  People value different things, and the term the "best" has a subjective component to it.

I'll concede that Ryan isn't the best overall.  He's certainly the best strike-out pitcher of all time (single-season stats and career), and he is one of the most durable pitchers the game has seen (while still be effective, of course).  In those two areas he does deserve to be mentioned among the top.  But clearly you are focused on an "all-around" category, and I'll agree Ryan doesn't come that close to cracking my top 10.

"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 9:01 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

For the record
Randy Johnson was a better strikeout pitcher than Ryan. Pedro, too, although he hasn't pitched nearly as long.

If I made a list of the most dominant pitchers of all time, Ryan would get consideration. But that's a different category, and he allowed too many runs to be one of the best overall.

by Jeff on Sep 25, 2007 9:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think
we are pretty much on the same page, Jeff.  

And for that stretch from '95-2002 (and throw in 91-94 too, really) Johnson was freakin' awesome.  He does have the best career SO/9 innings as well.  I still give Ryan some points for managing to strike out 1000+ more batters, play for 7 additional years (so far), and not have his back give out or arm fall off.  But you are right that Johnson is right there at the top of the list of his particular style of pitching, and you've given me something to think about.  Randy probably won't pitch for as long as Ryan (nor pitch nearly as many innings), but since I consider pitchers with much shorter careers in the list of best all-around, I can't forclose Randy from being right there with Ryan for best strike-out pitcher of all time.  Pedro, not so much, at least not for like 1000 more strikeouts, 4 or 5 years.

"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 10:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd be interested
to see how Ryan would have done if he was throwing fewer innings, like almost everyone else.  How were his stats in innings 250 up to 330-something, all those years?  It seems pretty logical that his ERA and walk rate would go down if he was held to pitch counts and innings limits like pitchers are now.  Think about all the games were batters wouldn't be getting to see him for the 4th of 5th time.  That many innings probably means he was pitching in some blowouts as well - could some of that high ERA come from aggressive pitching in those situations?

Nolan Ryan had nasty stuff.  I'm not saying he's the best ever, but I think his 112 ERA+ is a little deceiving.

by Manzanillos Cup on Sep 25, 2007 10:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually, I checked
and he only went over 250 IP 6 times.  He did have some insane pitch counts, though.

by Manzanillos Cup on Sep 25, 2007 10:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is the best I can do
Ryan overall: .605 OPS against
Ryan, innings 7-9: .591
Ryan facing opponents 3rd+ time: .625
Ryan after pitch 101: .602 (not complete stats)

by Jeff on Sep 25, 2007 10:56 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't speak
to the effect those added innings had, I'm not sure how you quantify that, but just a few interesting stats:

Ryan had 7 years with higher complete game totals than Randy Johnson's best single year -(Johnson had 12 complete games in 1999, Nolan had 14 or more 7 times in his career, breaking 20 five times). Pedro broke double digits one time, with 13.

For innings pitched - Johnson's highest was 255.3 in 1993, and Pedro's was 241 in 1997.  Ryan had 5 seasons higher than Johnson's best, and 6 better than Pedro's.  He had 16 seasons of 196 or more innings.  I agree with Jeff that he's not in the running for best overall of all time, and it matters a good deal what is going on in those innings, but it's pretty amazing to wonder what kind of pitcher he'd have been if most of his career was in the active bullpen era we enjoy today.  

I don't think you add on years to the end of his career or anything, but maybe he does get a boost for having to only pitch 7 innings a game?  I don't know how you'd ever determine that, but it's interesting to think about.  Is it reasonable to think a person's walk rates stand a better chance of going down if a pitcher only goes 6+ or 7 and has his rate extrapolated to a greater extent as opposed to pitching more innings and going deeper in ballgames when he's not likely to be as effective or sharp?  Could be.  There are plenty of pitchers in the 4 man rotation eras who have good rates despite pitching many innings (there are only 112 pitchers with more complete games thrown than Ryan), so I don't know what to think.

"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 11:04 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well...
Ryan didn't have to pitch in Coors, the Juice Box, or really in many of the modern ballparks until the tail end of his career.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml

See the "lgERA"? That's League ERA, adjusted for Ryan's home ballparks. It's 3.57- meaning an AVERAGE pitcher would put up an ERA line of just over 3.5. He only pitched 4 years in his career in an environment where an average pitcher could be expected to give up 4 earned runs per game.

Now, let's look at RJ:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/johnsra05.shtml

Career lgERA: 4.43

IOW, RJ's pitching in environments where pitchers are giving up nearly an earned run more a game (thanks to smaller parks, more home runs, etc.).

That's why this isn't even close in my book. It's a lot easier to pitch a bazillion innings and strike out almost 400 batters when you're in a league where the average hitter is basically Willie Bloomquist with maybe a little bit more power (1973 AL average hitter: .259/.328/.381), as opposed to the average hitter RJ faced in 1995: .270/.344/.427

by eponymous coward on Sep 25, 2007 12:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't agree
that Ryan's strikeout rates or career strikeout numbers were "easy" to achieve, by any means.  I don't even think you can argue that Johnson is nearly as durable as Ryan either.  But Johnson clearly had a better run of peak strikeout years in terms of SO/9.  I don't think Ryan was able to pitch all those innings simply because the hitters he faced were less skilled.  He covered like 3 different eras, after all.  But I'll give you that he pitched in a less, how shall we say it, pumped up era than does Randy Johnson.  So there's something to the argument that Johnson, for more of his career, has faced tougher opponents in the batter's box.  It just doesn't make up enough of the difference to give Johnson a "clear" edge over Randy as all-time best strikeout pitcher.  At best, its still a good race, I think.
"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oops
It just doesn't make up enough of the difference to give Johnson a "clear" edge over RYAN as all-time best strikeout pitcher," that is.
"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 2:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

it's not close
Nolan Ryan

Randy Johnson

open up both in side by side tabs, then hit neutralize stats for each.

by Matthew on Sep 25, 2007 2:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup.
Thought so. Glad this confirms it.

by eponymous coward on Sep 25, 2007 5:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Big Train Johnson...
Well, certainly SLG has become a much bigger part of the modern game than it was in the era when WJ pitched.  He finished his career the year Ruth singlehandedly hit more home runs than any other team in the AL.  

But, um, I'm not sure I'd agree that the level of talent in the 10s and 20s is that much worse than it is in the modern era (guys Clemens, Pedro, etc., and to a certain extent, Ryan, have faced).  While the AL has Vlad, Manny, Ortiz, Ichiro, A-Rod, and a bunch of other big time hitters, I'm not sure they're at the same tier as Sisler, Ruth, Heilmann, Cobb, Shoeless Joe, Collins, Lajoie.  Yeah, there's the SLG with the HRs, but again, you're talking a different era, which is difficult to do.  But as far as hitters go, the competition that Johnson,  and others that pitched in that era (10s-20s) was just as tough, collectively, in that era's game, as it is today.  

Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 25, 2007 11:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That said...
The debate in my mind is certainly Clemens - Johnson due to nearly every factor.  Pedro's up there, too, but durability can't be ignored.  

Throwing durability out the window, and longevity, then it's Koufax, hands down.

Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 25, 2007 11:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I hope it was clear
since my clarification got buried, that I don't think Johnson and Grove or Quisenberry were actually next ON MY LIST or JEFF's LIST of best pitchers of all time.  I was simply pointing out they were next on the list of adjusted ERA+, in an attempt to show that one stat was not sufficient to determine the best.  Pedro is at the top of that stat list for career ERA+, and I was trying to say there are other stat categories to consider in that bubbly soup of subjective confusion used to determine the "best."
"If the fans don't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them." --Yogi Berra

by Mariner fan in Rockies exile on Sep 25, 2007 11:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Maddux?
I think Maddux might deserve consideration here too.  The guy has been freakishly durable and had nearly as dominant a seven year stretch from '92 to '98 as Pedro did from '97 to '03 (granted, he wasn't pitching in Fenway).

Granted I think Clemens has the edge on both of them, but probably not by as much as you'd think.

by srs on Sep 25, 2007 10:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He finished in the top ten in ERA 8 times
and was a two time champion.

I agree with Jeff that he isn't one of the best pitchers of all time, but I think he's overstating his case a bit.

by JI on Sep 25, 2007 8:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ummm.
Hello, Astrodome and Anaheim Stadium (both good pitchers parks when Nolan pitched there). Using ERA as a raw stat is a bad way to misunderstand Ryan's impact on the game.

Ryan's a deserving HOFer for sure, but there's a reason he has a grand total of zero Cy Young Awards- whenever/wherever he was in the league, there were 4-5 better pitchers you could point to.

Hell, Nolan Ryan was quite arguably the SECOND-best pitcher on the team a couple of times, for a run of 3-4 years:

Frank Tanana on the Angels
Mike Scott on the Astros

You can't say that about guys like RJ, Pedro or Seaver until it was clear they were on the downside of their career. Maybe Clemens after he went to the Yankees, but he had a very dominant run that Ryan never had.

Ryan's greatness stems from his extended performance of being good (but not great) over a long period of time, NOT because of his peak performance (which wasn't that great).

by eponymous coward on Sep 25, 2007 12:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed.
Ryan never consistently excellent(and may have actually been more effective as a 40 year old in a DH league).

by JI on Sep 25, 2007 12:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

pitching 4 or 5 complete games in a season
Halladay has 7 just this season.  He has 26 over the past 5 seasons, and he was injured in two of them.

by Llewdor on Sep 25, 2007 2:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually...
The playoffs ARE a crapshoot.

It's just that some team play with loaded dice (better pitching, superstar hitters, etc.).

by rtang on Sep 25, 2007 8:44 AM PDT   0 recs

Closers in non-save situations
Given the conventional wisdom on closers, we might assume that when they are brought in outside the inning specified by their role, they are facing better competition.

The larger sample size of their 9th inning appearances is going to include a few 7-8-9s, but when they're brought in to save the day in the seventh or eighth, they're probably facing the best that the opposing lineup has to offer.

by derek on Sep 25, 2007 9:44 AM PDT   0 recs

Re: closers
I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and guess that most of those non-save appearances are 9th innings when the team is up by more than 3 runs. I.E., J.J. Putz coming in to start the 9th when the M's are up 8-3 because he hasn't pitched in four days and needs some work.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 25, 2007 10:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So I guess that'd make Buehrle
Stephen Colbert's favorite player, right?

by SethGrandpa on Sep 25, 2007 10:16 AM PDT   0 recs

Can you sidebar these?
These are great posts.  Can you maybe put them in the "LL References" section, so they're easily available?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Sep 25, 2007 12:56 PM PDT   0 recs

You the man
I'll fax you a beer.  Did you get it yet?  Was it tasty?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Sep 25, 2007 2:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I got the fax while driving.
It was ugly. People died.

by Jeff on Sep 25, 2007 2:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's their own fault
for getting in the way of a beerfax.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Sep 25, 2007 2:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Fax machines in cars?
I'd love to have one of these.

by Gomez on Sep 25, 2007 4:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I loved those 2003 Dodgers
574 RS, 556 RA.  That's a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 games.

by Llewdor on Sep 25, 2007 2:51 PM PDT   0 recs

Nolan Ryan
I saw an interview once with Frank Tanana where they asked him what came to mind when he thought of Nolan Ryan. He thought for a moment and then said, "his ability to withstand pain.." . Nolan Ryan pitched hurt more than anyone. He would go 2 straight months hurt and inconsistent, heal, and then blow the league away the rest of the time. The critics look at his numbers and decide.....did you really see this guy pitch? I don't mean just with the Texas Rangers, either. Back in the 70's hitters would choke up with 2 strikes and foul off 4 or 5 pitches in a row before he would muscle one past them. Ryan was striking out more hitters near the tail end of his career, as well, per 9 innings..it was a reflection of the type of hitter that existed...the type that Ryan in his prime would have had very little trouble putting away. If he would have been in his prime in this era he would fan over 400 in a season easily...ask anyone that saw him pitch in California. Hitters were TRULY scared to face him and unlike the passive power pitchers of today, he earnestly threw inside.

Ryan's career ERA would have been considerably lower if he would have sat every time he had an ache or a pain like many of the pitchers that you see in the game today. He would have never even come close to pitching in as many innings as he eventually did.

by Tom on Sep 25, 2007 7:34 PM PDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

By reading a game thread of your own volition you agree to accept all liability for any and all damage done to your delicate sensibilities.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
LL Online Shop!

Recent FanPosts

Small
All-time worst MVP/Cy Young vote?
Img_5482__crop_2__small
Ryan Rowland-Smith's latest blog (includes info on his mullet!)
Small
Arizona Fall League rosters taking shape
Small
OTFUPOD - 082708
539w_small
Instant Replay -----> Thursday
Nolamarinergirl1_small
OFFTOP 08.26.08
F4_small
Got bad news? Don't shoot the Messenger ('cos he's just been called up to Seattle)
Small
Guardado -> Twins
Small
The On-Topic TagPost of the Day

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Overlords

Garza_small Gomez

Small Jeff

Hmssurprise_small Graham

Small Matthew

Hunter_small Devin

ad

Site Meter