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John McLaren

Given the "baseball" we've seen played the last month, I really wonder how it will be possible to justify keeping McLaren around. He has no creativity, he obviously didn't try at all to motivate the players and he refuses to ever play the young players. My question to you: Will John McLaren be retained?

I'd like to say he wouldn't be, but I really don't know if the upper management would fire him.

Poll
Will John McLaren be retained?
Yes
72 votes
No
84 votes

156 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 76 comments

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As much as it pains me to say it,
I think he'll stick around for another season.

by StevenH on Sep 17, 2007 3:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

He'll likely be the scapegoat for the collapse
If the team had merely faded from contention rather than free falling, McLaren's job probably would be safe.  But even worse than the collapse itself was that McLaren appeared lost and overmatched.  Now, absent a great finish, the front office is likely looking for an upgrade.  

I would guess that the front office makes a short list of possible replacements and puts out feelers.  If they are confident that one of their preferred choices will sign, they fire McLaren.  If they do not think they can get someone better than McLaren, they keep McLaren.

by G_ on Sep 17, 2007 3:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The New GM
Will bring in his own guy to manage.  Bavasi = buh bye!  McLaren = buh bye!

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Sep 17, 2007 3:49 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't really think it's his fault necessarily
either. McLaren had plenty of talent (or in Ho's replacement's case, someone who doesn't suck as much) to work with, he just chose to ignore it.
When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Sep 17, 2007 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not this year, maybe.
However, I wouldn't be surprised to see the M's "regress to the mean" next year if Bavasi's retained- and that almost certainly means he and Mac are history.

Why? Well...

  • I have very little faith that he will "fix" the Sexson problem in such a way that it doesn't screw us up.
  • the problems with starting pitching are going to be VERY hard to fix, and pretty much require trades, since the FA market is a giant pile of suck. Bill Bavasi's trade record? Not inspiring confidence so much.
  • My guess is the team resigns Guillen, making a good chunk of our offensive core over 30. As a group, you'd expect Johjima+Guillen+Raul+Ichiro+Vidro to go down in productivity next year (my guess is Ichiro doesn't, but some of the other guys do, and the risk of someone doing a complete faceplant ala Sexson/Everett/Boone is non-trivial- once you get enough guys over 30, SOMEONE invariably starts looking old).
  • Jones (and no Sexson) will possibly counteract that... but he's also the kind of hitter that could struggle at Safeco and have 200-300 PAs where he doesn't hit well.
  • The murmurs that Willie is a candidate for a fulltime 2B job next year because of Lopez's bad year. Basically, Willie's a version of Lopez who will NEVER hit, and doesn't play good D, either.
  • Broussard likely walks, making the bench weaker.
  • The team is still going to be horribly streaky, and doesn't walk, at all.
Basically, this team feels like the late-90's Angels under... Bill Bavasi. They had a decent year in 1998 (second behind the Ranger) and then tanked in 1999. I sure hope they don't, but seeing them go from 85 wins to something like 78 wouldn't surprise me at all.

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
-I think Ichiro will regress to the mean, which will cost him 20-30 points of onbase.

-Raul will probably regress too, and continue fuck us over on defense no matter where we play him. I'd have more confidence in his ability to no suck if he were platooned at DH. I think the best thing for us is here is a nagging injury of some sort.

-Vidro will probably be brought back to DH because "It's Richie's job to hit HRs, Vidro has done his." Plus, who would want him? He's going to regress to a paltry .275/.330/.360 line. The only real value he has is as a Dave Hansen PH guy on an NL team. Again, some sort of Mo Vaughn-type knee injury is our only hope here. If anything, I think that Vidro should wrap those hot dogs in bacon.

-Washburn will probably be better with AJ patrolling our OF

-Our bullpen is going to be ungodly good if just one of our two injured righties make it back from Tacoma.

-Our rotation is a steaming pile of shit. Expect another Miguel Batista type signing, and a pile of veteran slop to be brought in as a 5th starter.

-We are fucked if Willie is our 2B. Imagine .240/.290/.310 with no Plan B.

Basically our only hope is that Felix turns into Johan Santana, and that Adam Jones plays like a manbeast.

by JI on Sep 17, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, I think Ichiro will be fine.
He always is- barring injury. Which hasn't happened yet, either. If THAT happens, we are screwed.

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

mmmmm
bacon-wrapped hot dog!

by coolguyrob on Sep 18, 2007 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He makes 15 million next year and he sucks.
I'd say that's a problem.

I think Mac comes back if Bavasi does, BTW.

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He certainly does make a lot of money,
but he doesn't suck. He's a pretty darn good hitter, even if he's not a good fielder. And while he is making a lot of money, you can't change anything about his contract now.

Not sure why any of this should be considered any kind of a problem, though. He's certainly far from the only player on the M's or around the league that is overpaid.

With the problems the M's have in their starting rotation, Richie Sexson being overpaid is not high on the list right now.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 17, 2007 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
Richie Sexson is horrible.

by Jeff on Sep 17, 2007 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He hit .205/.295 /.399 this year at 1B.
He also has a grand total of 3 months of decent hitting in his last two years in the majors, and he's had major injuries that ruined his season two of the last four seasons.

Oh, and he plays bad defense, and he's a RH pull hitter in a terrible park for RH pull hitters.

In what universe is that not "sucks"?

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is
a horrible fielder. But his lifetime his OPS is .859, with the Mariners (in Safeco field), it's .822. How is that sucking?

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 17, 2007 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edgar has a lifetime OPS of .933
Ergo, Edgar would be a better player than Sexson right now, right?

Heck, Carl Everett had a pretty good lifetime OPS- why didn't we bring HIM back?

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Say what?
You're not making any sense now -- Edgar is gone and retired. How does bringing him into the conversation have anything to do with Sexson now?

And for that matter, what does Carl Everett have to do with anything either?

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 17, 2007 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you like getting all existential on my ass or
something? I suppose in the grand scheme of things, like the life of the Universe and all that is, I guess you can say that none of what we know and think about means anything. But if we're talking about the Mariners and Richie Sexson, well then of course it has meaning. How could it not?

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 17, 2007 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the year 2008
Richie Sexson's career OPS means nothing.

by Jeff on Sep 17, 2007 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a retarded argument
I can't believe someone just said Richie Sexson is good.
God. Dammit.

by Librocrat on Sep 18, 2007 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're basing Sexson's value on past performance.
As we all know, past performance does not indicate future results, or Babe Ruth could have played and OPS'ed a zillion until he keeled over in 1948 (and maybe after- Zombie Babe Ruth...)

Again, Sexson at the plate was:

  • injured most of 2004
  • good in 2005 after being signed
  • bad the first half of 2006, good the second half
  • terrible this year
  • don't know yet about 2008
So, he's had 10 good months out of his last 24, and been injured or just plain bad the other 14. And he still sucks defensively, even WHEN he's hitting well.

To put this in context, Mo Vaughn, Bill Bavasi's OTHER stupid signing? He was good to OK in 1999, 2000 and 2002 of his 5 year deal, so he had 3 somewhat productive years from ages 31-35.

IF Richie comes back strong next year, he will have a grand total of 3 reasonably productive years at the plate in his last 5, from ages 29-33.

Bottom line? Richie was a terrible contract, just like Mo Vaughn was (immobile 1B  with "old players skills" don't age well), and now you're seeing why, because we just gave 500 plate appearances to a terrible defensive 1B, making 15 million, who most SHORTSTOPS outhit.

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, not even close to being true
As we all know, past performance does not indicate future results

Well that's just absolutely ridiculous. I mean, you can't really believe what you're saying there can you? If that were true, no GM in baseball would have any idea who to sign, who to trade for, who to draft. Any evaluation of any player has to take into account past performance. Otherwise, you wouldn't have any idea who was going to be a better player in the future, Willie Bloomquist of Albert Pujols.

Past performance is a huge part of expected future performance, much more important for established players than any scouting reports or physical metrics are.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 17, 2007 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which matters little
Because what he's done for his career is much more relevant for what he's likely to do in the future than any one year is.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 17, 2007 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That actually isn't true.
The most recent season is the best indicator of future performance than anything else.

by Jeff on Sep 18, 2007 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, no, it's not.
The last year should probably be weighed more than other one year because it's closer in time to where the player's true talent is at that time. But it also is not nearly as important as getting an understanding of what a player's total career has been to that point. And especially in the case of this last Season for Richie Sexson, an unusually bad year is certainly not nearly as important to projecting what his future performance is likely to be as the bulk of his past performance would be.

You can choose to disagree with me now, but I guarantee you, when Zips and Pecota and Chone and all come out, they are going to say the same thing I'm saying now -- there's no reason to expect that Richie Sexson is going to be any different a hitter than he was before this season.  

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 18, 2007 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your point was okay until the end.
How do you reconcile these?

The last year should probably be weighed more than other one year because it's closer in time to where the player's true talent is at that time.

...

there's no reason to expect that Richie Sexson is going to be any different a hitter than he was before this season.

Even using the incredibly basic .5/.3/.2 weighting system for OPS, before the year we would've projected Sexson for an .877 OPS. Now, the same calculation spits out a .782.

by Jeff on Sep 18, 2007 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's no way
That any rational, reasonable projection system would project that Sexson is likely to put up an OPS of only .782 next year. That is so far below his normal year that it's simply ludicrous.

I mean, really. You guys act like you've never seen a player having a bad year before. It happens all the time in baseball. Honestly, how long have you been watching baseball? And I know, that sounds patronizing, but I really am amazed at how many people seem to think that what we've seen from Richie this year is somehow evidence of some new talent level that wasn't there before, and this is what we should come to expect from him. Players (unless suffering from some sever, career-changing injury) don't just lose their abilities like that in the span of one year.

I've got a few examples for you, right here:

How 'bout Mike Lowell?:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lowelmi01.shtml

For several years in his 20's, he was one of the best Thirdbaseman in the Majors, hitting for average and power, generally putting up OPS of 800+. So what happens in 2005? He slumps down to .236 with 8 homers, and an OPS of .658. And you heard the rumors, people saying, "Oh, he's 31 now and he's lost his bat speed, he just can't get around on fastballs any more". And of course, he bounced right back, and the last 2 seasons has put up numbers that are among the best of his career. A move to Fenway park has no doubt helped that some, but hardly would be considered the primary reason for his return to form.

Rondell White:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitero02.shtml

A good hitter throughout his career, generally hitting over .300 in his prime with a fair amount of extra base hits. Lifetime, .798 OPS. But how about 2002?: in 455 at bats, an OPS of .666. The three years after? .829, .790, .837.

Reggie Sanders:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandere02.shtml

A really excellent player for a very long time, with some yearly OPS during his career of over .900. But when he was 32, he slumped to .705. Not a good season at all for a player with a lifetime OPS over .800. But of course, that was only one year, and it didn't spell doom for him. Some of his best seasons came after that time when he was in his mid- and late-30's.

Jermaine Dye:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dyeje01.shtml

While some of his problems may have been injury-related during his abyssmal 2003, I suppose the same could be said of a lot of players that suffer through bad years. At times, it's almost impossible to divine how much an injury contributes to poor play, and how much is just, well, poor play. This is one of the more stark example of how bad a year a good player can have. Lifetime OPS: .823. OPS in 2003: .514. Oakland fans, if I remember correctly, we're ready to ride him out of town with torches and pitchforks (I'm sure I'm mixing some metaphores in some way there). I bet they wish they still had him now.

Of course, our own Jose Guillen, just last year:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/guilljo01.shtml

We've been hearing from many Mariner fans how much they have loved Jose Guillen's play for us this year. And it comes following a season where he hit .216 with an OPS under .700. After that kind of year, how many people in Washington (the city, not the state) do you think were writing him off as a Major Leaguer? And yet, here he is in Seattle, the following year, doing just fine.

Pat Burrell

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/burrepa01.shtml

A much under-appreciated player in his home park, he suffered through a horrible season in 2003 when he was 26, yet bounced back and otherwise, has been a very productive player, even if Philly fans somehow don't think so. His lifetime OPS: .850. 2003: .713

Well, I hope I've made my point by now. I found these in about 20 minutes looking through Baseball-Reference. This is far from an exhaustive study -- if you spent the time, you could find plenty more. Ballplayers have bad seasons -- that's all there is to it. It's just part of the game.

You can go through baseball history and find literally hundreds of cases where players have had unexpectedly bad years in the middle of their playing careers. And almost to a man, if they're given the playing time, they bounce back to the kind of level they were at previously. You've got to get used to it -- it's going to happen over and over again, it's just part of the nature of the game of baseball.

So Richie Sexson hasn't somehow just forgotten how to hit the ball. You should expect that next season, he's going to return to being the kind of hitter he was before this year. He's just having an unfortunate season. The type of season that's happened to hundreds of players before, to some degree or another, and the type of season that's going to happen to plenty more players. Get over it. He's just had a bad year, and there's nothing more to it.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 18, 2007 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One-sided
FWIW, you forgot Jim Thome as a recent example of what you're talking about.

Problem is, there's just as many examples of players who had that one bad year and that was it, they were done. There are countless examples of sluggers who are great and all, reach a few years past 30 and then just collapse, completely. Denny Tartabull, Frank Howard, Gil Hodges are a few like that, I don't have time to go traipsing through the annals for perfect examples.

That being said, I think most people would agree with your basic assertation, that Sexson is mostly just having a bad year (after all, his PrOPS is .820) and that he will rebound at least somewhat next season. Problem is, you cannot be sure of that and you are acting like you are. You are talking as if you are 100% convinced that Richie Sexson will produce a 875 OPS next season and anyone who takes the huge mountain of 2007 as evidence that he won't is stupid. If that's what you really believe that you're the idiot, not everyone else.

You must acknowledge that there's a very real possibility that Richie Sexson is finished as a hitter.

by Matthew on Sep 18, 2007 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...
What about Bret Boone, John Olerud, Jimmy Presley. Alvin Davis and Carl Everett, if you'd like some counterexamples?

They all had bad years at the END of their careers. That was what told everyone they were washed up. How do we know Sexson isn't?

And the thing is, it's NOT JUST ONE YEAR. His 2006 was down as well from his career, and he spent 3 months being as terrible as he was for all of 2007. You don't think having a 1B hit .200/.300/.400 for 9 months out of the last 12 is poor performance for Sexson's contract?

by eponymous coward on Sep 18, 2007 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you really believe this?
In that case, how do you evaluate whether an old(er) player is not just over the hill, but actually at the bottom of the hill?

Would you want to sign Mike Piazza as your DH next year? After all, his career line is 308-377-546, career OPS+ of 143.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Sep 18, 2007 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would I want to sign Mike Piazza as my DH?
Of course I wouldn't want to. He's not likely to hit very well for me, at least not compared to the average for DH's. With a guy like Piazza that's well beyond his prime playing days and very likely near the end, he's not likely to hit anywhere close to his career numbers.

And we can see this if you look at his most recent seasons. He's really not anywhere close to being the kind of hitter he was in his prime. He may still be able to hit decently for a couple more years, but I wouldn't expect anything tremendous, unless he's used in a limited role, and then you never know what kind of results you could get with small sample sizes.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 18, 2007 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And how do you know Sexson isn't washed up?
If you look at Sexson's recent seasons, it's injured, good, OK, crappy and injured.

That's 2 of 4 years where he didn't contribute, one season where he was good all year, one season where he was terrible then good and averaged out to OK, one season when terrible.

Would YOU sign this guy to a one year, 14 million dollar contract at age 33? I don't think so- he'd get an incentive deal like Guillen did. THAT is why he's a problem- he's going to be paid like an elite 1B when he really doesn't deserve it.

by eponymous coward on Sep 18, 2007 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sexson's comps = washouts by age 35
Have you looked at PECOTA's list of comparable players for Sexson?  Remember, these are from before this season started, so they do not factor his 2007 into the evaluation.

Jose Canseco
Dale Murphy
Cecil Fielder
Frank Howard
Jay Buhner
Carlos Delgado
Greg Luzinski
Fred McGriff
Dale Long
Tim Salmon

Thus, it is a list of players who washed out by age 35, plus Fred McGriff and Carlos Delgado (who is in the process of washing out at age 35).

And unlike Sexson, McGriff had hitting skills other than power to help delay his decline.

McGriff career .284 BA, 13.0% BB%, 21.5% K%
Sexson career .263 BA, 10.5% BB%, 26.4% K%

by G_ on Sep 18, 2007 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trust me
I'm not trying to defend Sexson's contract. That's a lot of money for a guy who gives you very little value defensively. What I am countering is the assertion that because he's sucked this year, that means he will forever continue to suck.

Someone said above that we can't know for sure that Sexson will bounce back, and that's is 100% true. And we can also say that we really don't know with any surety how any player is going to perform next year. All we can do is try the best we can to estimate as close as possible, come up with the best expectation of what we're likely to see from them.

The list of comps above that G was kind enough to provide for us is a pretty good illustrative point. You can look at those players individually and see that with a couple notable exceptions (Dale Murphy is an odd case) most of them played, and played productively, until they were 35, 36, 37.

And while we can all find examples of very good players who washed out for reasons other than injury in their early thirties, the list is far overshadowed by the number of players who continued to play well til at least their mid-thirties, and quite often beyond.

We can't know for sure what we are going to see from Richie Sexson next year, just like we can't know for sure about any player. But the odds of him coming back and hitting well again are certainly stacked in his favor.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 18, 2007 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're backing off your point.
These were your words:

there's no reason to expect that Richie Sexson is going to be any different a hitter than he was before this season.

You're right, we can't predict the future. We can only give our best guess. And the information on which our best guess is founded has been updated with a miserable 2007 performance.

by Jeff on Sep 18, 2007 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Without a doubt, it's been updated.
But the bulk of his playing time that has come before this, and his success he had in those seasons, far outweighs what he has done in one bad year.

I don't think there's anyone here (or anywhere) that thinks that Richie Sexson is going to hit like he did in his prime in Milwaukee. I sure don't. There certainly are exceptions to the rule, but hitters in their thirties rarely can hit to the level that they did in their 20's. But they still retain the majority of that ability to hit, and there's no reason to think that Sexson should be any different.

Baseball history basically backs that point up. Unless there are other mitigating factors, such as career-changing injury, very good hitters don't just all of a sudden lose the ability to hit in their early thirties. And since I haven't heard anybody suggest that Sexson has suffered some kind of injury that would limit his ability to play in the future, there's no reason to think that this is anymore than a classic case of a player just having a bad year.

Really, there isn't. He's simply having a bad year, and we shouldn't be thinking there's some weird, sudden loss of his abilities.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 18, 2007 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Richie Sexson is not a very good hitter
He's a career .268 hitter.  Baseball history is filled with power hitters who suddenly lost their ability to hit -- Alvin Davis, Kevin Mitchell, Gorman Thomas, Richie Zisk, and that's just a few former Mariners.

by G_ on Sep 18, 2007 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kevin Mitchell was a terror with the bat
Before and after he played in Seattle. He didn't forget how to hit, he just left for Japan, got old, and the extra lbs he was carrying caught up with him.

He also was bat shit crazy:

"An urban legend involving Kevin Mitchell holds that during the Mets' championship run in 1986, during an argument with his then live-in girlfriend, Mitchell decapitated her cat. The story first came to light in Dwight Gooden's autobiography Heat. Gooden claimed that an enraged Mitchell held him hostage during the alleged cat incident. Mitchell responded to Gooden's accusations by accusing Gooden of fabricating the stories in an attempt to divert attention away from Gooden's personal problems."

"After being released for the last time, he was arrested in late 1998 for assaulting his father during an argument. Back in the minor leagues as manager of the Sonoma County Crushers in 2000, he was suspended for nine games after punching the opposing team's owner in the mouth during a brawl."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitchell_(baseball_player)

by JI on Sep 18, 2007 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some of Richie's comps from BR:
Ryan Klesko started decline phase at 31. Is now a .750-.770 OPS hitter.

Lee May: started decline phase at 34.

Tony Clark: started going tits-up at 30.

Gus Zernial: started to fade at 30.

Mo Vaughn: we went there already.

It's just not that unusual for players to start going tits-up after 30.

Richie Sexson's career OPS+ is 121 of league. If he retains 90% of that next year, and you assume a .750 league OPS adjusted for Safeco, that makes him an .817 or so on his OPS (and makes him a 110 OPS 1B)... for a terrible defensive 1B.

And that's a fairly optimistic scenario. A 110 league OPS from your 1B is Jose Vidro's lifetime OPS.

THAT is why he sucks.

by eponymous coward on Sep 18, 2007 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, no
What list are you reading?  Other than McGriff, each of Sexson's comps had his last season as a full-time, above-average hitter before age 35:

Canseco age 34
Murphy age 31
Fielder age 32
Howard age 34
Buhner age 32
Delgado age 34
Luzinski age 32
McGriff age 38
Long age 32
Salmon age 34

Sexson, currently age 32, fits right in.  His comps are going to look even worse next year when 2007 is considered.

by G_ on Sep 18, 2007 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy Spicolli, dawg
What are you looking at? Go back and look at those guys again. Most of them were still good hitters into at least their mid-30's. Should I go through them one-by-one for you?

Frank Howard was still going strong as a hitter when he hung them up for good at the age of 37.

Jose Canseco was still going strong as a hitter when he hung them up for good at the age of 37.

Jay Buhner was still going strong as a hitter when he hung them up for good at the age of 37.

Dale Long was still going....well, mostly going strong as a hitter until he hung them up when he was 36. His OPS+ for seasons 32 through 35 were 119, 95, 130, 106, then followed by a 97 in his last season, which certainly isn't bad.

Does Cecil Feilder count? Well, if you insist. Feilder put up OPS+ of 110, 109, 101, before a season of 87 when he was 34. We don't really know if he would've come back and hit well again, as that was his last appearance in the Majors (for good reason). Looking at his last few years, he would probably be able to hit okay again, but not anything special. With Fielder, you may well say there were mitigating circumstances that contributed to his decline. You know what they say, "you are what you eat" and when you looked at Cecil, it was obvious he was trying to turn himself into a donut.

Dale Murphy is one of the strangest cases in baseball history. this guy was absolutely a great player in his 20's, hitting, fielding, running with the best of them. He won MVP and Gold Gloves (if I remember correctly) and was considered to be one of the, if not the best player(s) in the game. And somehow, he lost all that in his early 30's. People are still wondering what happened to him. Probably just a case of a guy being an "early peaker". It happens that way sometimes.

Tim Salmon was still going strong as a hitter when he hung them up for good at the age of 38.

Danny Tartabull was still pounding the ball when he last played at the age of 33, hitting 27 homers and putting up an OPS of .827. I can't remember what happened to him after that. Did he go to Japan, or get injured or something? He certainly wasn't pushed out the door because he couldn't hit anymore.

McGriff and Delgado are almost the same player, left-handed slugging firstbasemen, hitting for average, for power, and drawing walks. Both were/are outstanding hitters who were/will be  dangerous hitters into their late 30's.

Luzinski is similar in many ways to Feilder, a guy who wasn't able to keep himself in shape, which made teams reluctant to keep playing him in the field. He had 3 strong seasons of OPS+ of 144, 130, and 129 up to his age 33 season where he put up an 87 and retired or was released. Most likely, another case of a hitter having a bad year, and because of his age and defensive (in)ability, no team was going to want to keep him around. Or maybe he just got tired of trying to keep himself off the couch and away from the congealed food group.

I'm not sure why you mention the playing time in this discussion. We're looking at hitting, and for the most part, these players were still good hitters when they retired in their mid-to-late-thirties. There are lots of thing that can affect playing time for any one individual. I'm sure there were problems with injuries, reduced defensive ability, maybe competition from younger players. That's the way most players' careers wind down. But there's no doubt by looking at this group that they were still competent hitters.

You may well argue whether these palyers are good comps for Sexson, and there are only 10 of them, but their examples provide some evidence that players generally retain a good deal of their hitting ability well into their 30's.

Nothing about this group of players should give anyone reason to doubt that Richie Sexson won't bounce back and be a good hitter again. He's just having a bad year, like countless baseball players before him.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 18, 2007 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why does playing time matter? Seriously?
A player is not helping his team sitting on the bench.  And if a player is riding the bench, somebody better is playing in his place.  Reduced playing time also may mask a player's abilities through platoon splits and random variation in smaller sample sizes.  You use Dale Long's 130 OPS+ as an example, but that came in a season in which he had 95 AB.    

OPS+ is not position adjusted, so anything under 110 for 1B/DH like Sexson is not very good.  

Frank Howard was done as a regular and was not "still going strong as a hitter" after age 34.  He hit 244/324/364 in 320 AB in age 35 season and 256/327/463 in only 227 AB in his age 36 season, after which he retired.

Jose Canseco was done as a regular at age 34 and in limited playing time hit 252/377/444 in 329 AB in his age 35 season and 258/366/477 in only 256 AB in his age 36 season before retiring.

Jay Buhner was done as a regular at age 32.  He hit 242/344/463 in 244 AB in his age 33 season, 222/388/421 in 266 AB in his age 34 season, 253/361/522 in 364 AB in his age 35 season, and 222/340/400 in 45 AB in his age 36 season, after which he retired.

Dale Long was done as a regular after age 33 and was generally lousy as a part-time player afterwards.  He hit 236/306/432 in 296 AB in his age 34 season, 253/336/495 in 95 AB in his age 35 season (his 130 OPS+ season), 249/317/459 in 377 AB in his age 36 season, and 200/250/200 in 15 AB in his age 37 season before retiring.

Cecil Fielder was done as a regular after age 32 and hit 260/358/410 in 361 AB in his age 33 season and 233/324/401 in 416 AB in his age 34 season before retiring.

Greg Luzinski hit 238/329/364 in 412 AB in his age 33 season and then retired.

Tim Salmon was done as a regular after age 34 and hit 253/306/323 in 186 AB in his age 35 season, did not play in his age 36 season, and 265/361/450 in 211 AB as a platoon player in his age 37 season before retiring.

And as previously covered, Dale Murphy was a shadow of his former self after his age 31 season.  How does Sexson compare with Murphy?

Dale Murphy career:  .265 BA, 11.0% BB%, 22.0% K%
Richie Sexson career: .263 BA, 10.5% BB%, 26.4% K%

by G_ on Sep 18, 2007 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't talking about playing time....
I was talking about hitting.

And yes, with a couple of exceptions, all those players retained the ability to be better-than-average hitters into their mid-to-late 30's.

Here are the last 3 seasons for each of those players in OPS+

Frank Howard 144, 114, 115
Jay Buhner  105, 130, 101
Jose Canseco 134, 107, 118
Dale Long 130, 106, 97
Tim Salmon 127, 65, 113

Personally, I don't think Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff are really good comps to Sexson, because I think of them being superior players than him, as Dale Murphy was also. But they are on the list like the other guys, and they were certainly good hitters into their mid-to-late thirties.

Cecil Feilder bombed out
Dale Murphy bombed out

Greg Luzinski we don't know about what he would've done into his late 30's because he didn't play after he was 34.

The bottom line, of course, is what we might expect from Richie Sexson in the future. And it's pretty bad analysis if we're going to make a judgement like that on the basis of just 10 other players. While we can look at that list and see that for the most part, they were still good hitters until they retired, it's too small of a list to have a whole lot of confidence in making any kind of conclusion.

But if you were to look throughout baseball history, the majority of hitters of the level that Richie Sexson has been don't flame out in their early thirties. There's no reason to expect that he's any exception to the rule, and won't be a good hitter again.

by nathaniel dawson on Sep 19, 2007 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just a point about Delgado
Many many Mets fans have accepted that Delgado is in decline. Some, fear that the decline is steep and terminal. Some, like me, hope that his struggles in April was due to offseason surgery, and while he is in decline, he will still be useful, ie something along the lines of a 120 OPS+, 850 OPS.

His OPS+ for the year is 103, which at 1b is below average, not exactly a dangerous hitter. His line is 255-329-445.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Sep 19, 2007 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

struggles were due
visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Sep 19, 2007 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suggest you take a look at
Roberto Alomar's numbers. Seemingly overnight, he transformed from an MVP caliber player, offensively and defensively, into, not a replacement level player, but not much better, offensively and defensively.

He certainly did not experience the gentle decline that Piazza is undergoing. Alomar put up a 336-415-541 line, 149 OPS+ and won a GG in 2001 at the age of 33. The Mets traded for him expecting a player who was great defensively and offensively. The next year, 266-331-376, 91 OPS+, combined with a shocking decline defensively. The year after that, 258-333-349, 81 OPS+. After more struggles in 2004, out of baseball.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Sep 18, 2007 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he's been asleep for two years
and just woke up this afternoon.

by Gomez on Sep 17, 2007 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's BIZARRO!
I hate the BIZZARROS.

by eponymous coward on Sep 17, 2007 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't you mean...
you Bizzarro hate the Bizzarros?

by kingkip on Sep 18, 2007 6:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's why we traded Yorman Bazardo
Bavasi saw that episode of Sealab.

by Gomez on Sep 18, 2007 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Richie Sexson Sucks
Like John Olerud.
God. Dammit.

by Librocrat on Sep 18, 2007 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You realize . . .
 . . that LaRussa could be available?

Be careful of what you ask for.

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Sep 17, 2007 4:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

He's not coming here.
Not without Jocketty and Dunc.

by JI on Sep 17, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan
Actually, I wouldn't mind Jocketty and LaRussa if Duncan came with the package.  LaRussa has a tendency to overmanage, but so be it--better than McLaren, Grover or Box.  Jocketty has gotten some good to excellent players for the Cardinals.

But as for Duncan . . . It seems like crappy Mariner pitchers go there and become adequate (e.g., Pineiro) . . . Why not bring Duncan to Seattle and have those pitchers become adequate for the Mariners?

This is the way the season ends, season ends, season ends. This is the way the season ends--not with a swing but a called strike.

by Celadus on Sep 17, 2007 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa is a douce-bag
but he knows when to rest regulars, and when to yank his starters.

he does have a Miguel Cairo fetish though...

by JI on Sep 17, 2007 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know what's so bad about LaRussa.
I honestly don't know anything about him other than he's not an outlandish manager and he has a good track record. It may not sound so bad if we hadn't gotten a certain manager a couple years ago who also had a good track record.
I said REFUSE to regress, God dammit.

by Double06 on Sep 17, 2007 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

While McLaren will get a pass for this season
I can't possibly see them retaining him as a manager.  If the organization stays consistent with its beliefs they'll be looking for a manager that's "been through wars".  McLaren wasn't even supposed to be managing unless Hargrove tanked.

I'm curious as to whether or not McLaren HIMSELF wants to come back and manage next year.  It seems like it's getting too much for him and realizes it's not as easy as simply keeping the players happy.

by ThundaPC on Sep 17, 2007 4:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

in all fairness
we have no idea whether he TRIED to motivate the players or not...

sure, at times they didn't play with much motivation, but maybe it's the guys that didn't respond well to him?

other than that though, i'm gonna have to agree. He's completely clueless.

If a man who cannot count finds a four-leaf clover, is he lucky?

by Brick on Sep 17, 2007 5:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I didn't hear about any closed door meetings
or anything. Maybe it did happen, but I mostly just heard baseball cliches about how they need to stick with it.
When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Sep 17, 2007 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
...this team went through similar funks under Hargrove. I think we're talking about differences in degree, not in kind.

Still, not very impressive...

by rtang on Sep 17, 2007 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This slide under Mac,
is WAY worse than anything under Hargrove. Sure we lost 11 in a row last year to fall out of contention, but last year we weren't nearly as good as we were before this horrific collapse.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 17, 2007 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh really?
After 09 Aug 2006: 528 - 519 Pythag: 82.39 wins
After 24 Aug 2007: 637 - 618 Pythag: 83.45 wins

not much difference there.

by Matthew on Sep 17, 2007 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But we were 56-57
the day before we started the 11-game losing streak. We were 20 games above .500 this year.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 17, 2007 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Luck, Will
Will, Luck. Get acquainted.

by Matthew on Sep 17, 2007 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We couldn't be that lucky,
remember the first six Weaver starts, what was it? 80-16 RA-RS, or something?
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 17, 2007 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes we can
in fact, we were.

by Matthew on Sep 17, 2007 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

my short list, in descending order...
  1. John McLaren
  2. Ass-rape
  3. Dusty Baker
Yu Bet! Cuba, si! Yanqi, NO!

by Patrick517 on Sep 17, 2007 6:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Baker
Anything but having to watch him give more blowjobs to that toothpick. Even Hargrove, even McLaren, even the dessicated corpse of Billy Martin.
This is the way the season ends, season ends, season ends. This is the way the season ends--not with a swing but a called strike.

by Celadus on Sep 17, 2007 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Current poll numbers...
49% Yes
50% No

WHOOO ROUNDING!!!

by SethGrandpa on Sep 17, 2007 9:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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