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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

58-47

Not to worry, the team really gave it their all tonight. They battled against a good pitcher, and the only difference was that the Angels got a few hits when they needed to, and the Mariners didn't. It was a classic showdown between two AL giants, and Los Angeles just happened to be the ones who pulled it out in the end. The team knows what it didn't do right today, and they'll surely come out recharged and refocused for a critical rubber game tomorrow night.

Seriously, is there a worse justification for keeping problem bats in the lineup than "they're giving it their all"? What does McLaren even mean when he says "it means something to their teammates"? I've been in dugouts before. I've seen good players try hard and succeed, and I've seen bad players try hard and fail. They don't get treated the same. Players appreciate when someone's putting forth the effort instead of totally dogging it, but they appreciate winning even more, and as much as they may respect a teammate's determination, they still know that he's struggling and have little faith that he'll come through when they need him. Being supportive isn't the same thing as being loyal and optimistic.

And what message does this send to someone like Ben Broussard, who's hitting circles around most of our lineup? If McLaren really values people who "give it their all," then there are only two explanations: that he thinks Richie is trying harder than Broussard, or that he's wedded to assigned roles and refuses to see Broussard as anything more than a bench player. The former is insulting and the latter is stupid.

How does it make sense to stick with Richie and Raul because they're "giving it their all," anyway? Let's consider the two possible options, here:

(1) Richie and Raul are giving it their all. By definition, this means that they're putting forth as much effort as they can, and can't possibly elevate their levels of determination. By working as hard as their bodies allow, they've combined for a sub-.700 OPS. And because they're already maxing out their effort, there's no real hope of them getting better.

(2) They're not actually giving it their all, which means that either McLaren's a lousy evaluator, or he's lying to us about his reasons for keeping them in the lineup. Not that there's ever any reason to keep playing someone whose heart isn't completely into it. "Giving it your all" should be an expectation, not an achievement.

Assuming that #2 is incorrect, we're left with #1 - Raul and Richie are playing as hard as they can. That's all well and good; they should be playing as hard as they can. Playing baseball is their job, and nobody on the roster can afford to take it lightly. It just boggles my mind that "they're giving it their all" can be considered a compliment and a point of support for keeping a player or two in the everyday lineup. No manager at the office ever says "you can't fire Steve, he's a phenomenal typer." Typing is a requirement. People don't deserve to be praised for doing what they're supposed to do. People deserve praise for going above and beyond, something that clearly doesn't apply to the two Mariners in question.

Raul Ibanez and Richie Sexson are probably giving it their all every day they come to the ballpark. And their all isn't good enough. It's time to reward the people who've actually earned the jobs, rather than the people who've tried hard to hold on to them. At some point in any winning organization, performance has to trump everything else. The Mariners need to learn this lesson before it's too late, and that moment is coming quicker than you think.

Biggest Contribution: Jose Vidro, +7.4%
Biggest Suckfest: Jeff Weaver, -32.4%
Most Important At Bat: Beltre DP, -7.4%
Most Important Pitch: HGH homer #1, -18.4%
Total Contribution by Pitcher(s): -32.8%
Total Contribution by Position Players: -17.2%
Total Contribution by Opposition: 0.0%

(What is this chart?)

Reggie Willits is short and obnoxious. Adrian Beltre hasn't hit a slider in four years. The Angels hit 66% as many home runs tonight as they had in the entire month of July coming into the game. And I have to start resting up and packing for my trip to Seattle, so I can't put much into the website tonight or tomorrow.

Felix and Jered Weaver tomorrow night at 7:05pm in a game that determines whether or not the Mariners need to start focusing on the Wild Card instead of the division. Since breaking into the league, Weaver has a 177-point platoon split, and has allowed most of his homers to left-handed hitters. If Broussard isn't in the starting lineup, I'm going to build an effigy of John McLaren, sit it in my passenger seat, put a pillowcase over its head, and drive off a cliff.

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At least one Mariners fan I spoke to today
Who didn't want his comments made public, expressed disappointment that the team was unable to correctly identify their best options for either a starting left fielder or a first baseman, despite having watched them play for 4 straight months. "We had the players on the 40-man roster to get a playoff run done," he said.

by patsfan on Jul 31, 2007 11:14 PM PDT reply actions  

I hate how true that is.
And I hate how obsessed I am with this poorly run franchise.  ANY other team in baseball would've gone with alternatives to Richie and Raul by now.  Why did I have to choose the dumbest team in baseball to love?  It makes me sad :(

by BrettJMiller on Jul 31, 2007 11:19 PM PDT reply actions  

And if you do
Does that mean no appearance at LL/USSM nights?  Because that would suck.

by Gomez on Jul 31, 2007 11:20 PM PDT reply actions  

I hate team chemistry
play for yourselves you pieces of shit.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 31, 2007 11:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Get a headstart now
When exactly was the last time McLaren did something logical? Like something that every Mariner fan in the blogosphere has been screaming about for the last 2-3 months?

On a second note, if/when AJ comes up, has Vidro done enough to keep DH and nix the old plan of moving Ibanez to DH and Vidro to bench? Is there such a thing as a platoon of 3 or 4, including Richie and Broussard? Am I asking too many questions?

by oreotree on Jul 31, 2007 11:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Problem is,
McLaren drew himself a line in the sand with that "absolutely stick" statement.  He knows Broussard is exasperated and still imagines Raul and Sexy are sluggers.  Meanwhile, Beltre has rediscovered the strikeout and GIDP, and Turbo is stinging the ball.

I've given up trying to figure this team out.  Go M's?  whoever you are.

by lemonverbena on Jul 31, 2007 11:35 PM PDT reply actions  

aint that the truth
mmm chemistry
Spider pig, spider pig does whatever a spider pig does.

by wadswerth on Aug 1, 2007 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fuck that game
There is nothing worse than losing to the Angels with a stupid Angels fan right behind you the whole time talking trash.  I was waiting for a moment to shut him up.  Mariners, you failed me.  I hate you.  You can go fuck yourselves.  Tonight was pathetic.  You are all pathetic.  I am full of hatred.

On a sidenote, my dad and I bumped into Bavasi's assistant (secretary?) in the elevator as she was going to her car.  We chatted for about 1 minute about the trade deadline and I definitely let it slip out that I was happy with what happened only because I was terrified that we'd do something horrible.

And to end it, fuck you Mariners.  You all suck... except Ichiro, the bullpen, and yeah I don't think I'm leaving anybody out.  You all suck.  The angels make a little league team look like sluggers and you allowed them to dominate you.  I hope you all get raped by an elephant.

by Edgar for Pres on Aug 1, 2007 12:12 AM PDT reply actions  

I was at the game as well,
And I was sitting surrounded by (literally) 350+ lb female Angels fans. One of them told the little boy (M's fan) in front of her (when she stopped slamming down fistfulls of chips and cheese for long enough to talk) that she "wore her red shirt because she's an Angels fan".

It was everything I had not say "you wore a red shirt because they don't make jerseys in size HIPPO!"

Anyway, we bailed out of our seats when it was 0-6, and wandered the stadium for most of the game, ate some cold, nasty BBQ from the stand by the bullpens, then left early to head back north towards home.

Most dissapointing game and stadium experience I've ever had. Bad game, bad food, obnoxious fat Angels fans...   It sucked.

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Aug 1, 2007 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sec 122 row 35
Free tickets from my sister that she got from work as a bonus.

Thank God I didn't pay for them.

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Aug 1, 2007 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Guillen is going to murder Scocia's family
From the audio clip on Baker's blog:

Reporter:There were a couple of pitches you had to get away from.
Guillen:Yeah
Reporter:What was going through your mind, what do you think that was jus...
Guillen:What do you think went through my mind?
Reporter:I'm I'm I'm not
Guillen:Huh?
Reporter:That's why I'm asking, I have no idea.
Guillen(sounds like he
s challenging the guy):Hmm?
Reporter(very nervous now, maybe even a little scared):Thats why I'm asking.
Reporter #2:He's trying to say you didn't look very happy about it.
Guillen:Well I just......hope for the best that he's not trying. First pitch it was just kinda....I just didn't like the second one.I'm not afraid of anyone, yeah know. I just hope for the best that he don't say or he don't try...yeah know.He knows me better. That's all I have to say.
Reporter #3:You don't think it was personal?
Guillen:Huh?
Reporter #3:You don't think it was personal?
Guillen:I hope not.
Reporter #3:You don't think it was personal between you and him though do you? You and Mike.
Guillen:(long pause).....I told you I just hope for the best he was not trying.(Pause)....but if I find out he was trying, well...you know(long pause)...........that's a big problem. I'm not afraid of any pitcher, if he's throwing 100MPH, whatever.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Aug 1, 2007 1:04 AM PDT reply actions  

I was at the game
and just had visions of Lackey's head and the dirt from the mound being made into a bloody paste.  Then Guillen would turn on Scioscia and finish the job.

by Edgar for Pres on Aug 1, 2007 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fromt he transcript
the reporter sounds scared shitless.

by Mariner John on Aug 1, 2007 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is this for real?
I'm too lazy and morally opposed to giving Geoff another goddamned hit on his blog.

If thats for real... well than this was the best loss of the year. Awesome.

by hcoguy on Aug 1, 2007 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why is Baker acting like we have to win the West?
We are closer to the Tribe than the Angels. While it would be better to win the West, I would not mind winning the wild card, whatever works. Also, I do not know why firefox thinks that my hitting the apostrophe key means I want to make a quick search.

by Mariner John on Aug 1, 2007 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

well with the yankees surging
and the indians and tigers both playing well, there's less competition to win the division

by thenatural on Aug 1, 2007 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

because
the goal is to win the division, you aim for the highest goal first. the wildcard is like a backup date incase your first choice bails out.
Spider pig, spider pig does whatever a spider pig does.

by wadswerth on Aug 1, 2007 2:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

And for us
That backup date would look like Giselle right about now.

by phil333 on Aug 1, 2007 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I really think that we have to win the division.
I think the Tribe and the Yanks are both better teams than the Angels.
*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Aug 1, 2007 3:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sycophantic reporting
I know it isn't worth getting worked up over but reading this sort of 'analysis' over at MLB.com on why Adam Jones is being kept down makes me want to break stuff:

Seattle is getting good outfield play, and manager John McLaren doesn't want to risk losing team chemistry now, so Adam Jones stays in the Minors.

In the meantime, Ibanez, Guillen and Ichiro have held their own in the outfield. Combined, they have a.294 batting average. Ibanez is second on the team with 24 two-out RBIs, Ichiro is third (22) and Guillen is fifth (16).

We're giving Raul and Jose credit for Ichiro's .347 batting average these days?  Player evaluation by two-out RBIs?

Ibanez and Guillen are second and third with eight and seven game-winning RBIs, respectively. To cap it all off, Ichiro's .347 average is second best in the American League.

Raul and Jose are worth 15 wins!  In other news, Ichiro's constant hitting is kind of a bonus.

by Alex B on Aug 1, 2007 5:05 AM PDT reply actions  

It's because the knowledgeable fans
really appreciate watching past-prime players flail away for nostalgia's sake.  Much more satisfying than the simpleton's obsession with wins and losses.

by Paytheline on Aug 1, 2007 7:44 AM PDT reply actions  

Yup
That's why there were less than 30,000 fans there last night for a critical game against the division leaders. Because the last three years of watching our favorite players help us post 90-loss seasons is what it's really all about.

You gotta love these guys!

Or not.

by Jeff Nusser on Aug 1, 2007 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Mostly a bookkeeping thing...
Is there a particular reason you have the Angels with 528 runs scored instead of the 532 MLB.com says we've scored?
*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Aug 1, 2007 9:02 AM PDT reply actions  

I love when I hear a song in the morning
that expresseshow I feel about the team

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1bWezr3sHU

Hey Raul, please quit. Thank you NB

by InSpokane on Aug 1, 2007 9:13 AM PDT reply actions  

shit dogs
expresseshow = expresses how

I had a retard pancake for breakfast

Hey Raul, Richie, Vidro please quit. Thank you NB

by InSpokane on Aug 1, 2007 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually
This NSFW song is what I think of when I see the Angels.

by Gomez on Aug 1, 2007 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not really diary worthy,
or maybe it is but it's starting to sound more like Bavasi wasn't the one offering Jeff Clement and Wlad Balentin for Al Reyes and Octavio Dotel (respectively). Sounds like he was the one he passed on those offers, not the one offering. Which is actually, terrific news.

by Trent on Aug 1, 2007 9:25 AM PDT reply actions  

Bavasi
He kind of alluded to that on yesterday's pregame show.  He mentioned quite a few offers were looking for Adam Jones and he ultimately pulled away from those.

by ThundaPC on Aug 1, 2007 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, you used one of my pix
I see you liked my pic of Jaxon Willits... glad you liked!

by scareduck on Aug 1, 2007 10:05 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm glad you took it.
It was the best Willits image I could find.

by Jeff Sullivan on Aug 1, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh.
At the game last night, my wife saw Richie's average flashed up on the signs.  She asked me if that really was his batting average and I said "Yup".

She stopped giving me funny looks when I did the "Ben BrousSAard" (clap clap clapclapclap) chants.  She didn't quite join in, but Joey took care of that for her.

He also did the same for "Adam Jo-ones"...

RAUL HURTS THIS TEAM BY NOT PLAYING DRUMS FOR SPINAL TAP Oh, and Free Kam Mickolio!

by PositivePaul on Aug 1, 2007 10:20 AM PDT reply actions  

haha
was it when his BA went down to an even 200 after his last atbat? or when it was still a robust 202
Spider pig, spider pig does whatever a spider pig does.

by wadswerth on Aug 1, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I thought
batting average was a meaningless stat... how come its always the focal point in regards to Sexson?

by MfaninAlaska on Aug 1, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

how about an ops of .698
Hey Raul, Richie, Vidro please quit. Thank you NB

by InSpokane on Aug 1, 2007 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

That I can understand
but people don't harp about his OPS, its all about his batting average... and that's the only thing that is keeping him from being productive.

His obp is .101 points higher then his BA (Great thing)

His extra base hit % is almost 50%.  For every 2 hits one of them is for an extra base hit.  That is a great thing too... its just he sucks at hitting singles.

by MfaninAlaska on Aug 1, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you have a BA ~ .200
its impossible to be a good hitting 1B.  There is no way he could have something like .200/.360/.525.  You just don't do that.

by Edgar for Pres on Aug 1, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say
he was a good hitting 1st baseman..... I just think its funny how Sexson's BA is always the focal point of how bad he is, while when it comes to someone like Vidro the BA should be ignored.

by MfaninAlaska on Aug 1, 2007 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well thats why he's bad
His BB% and ISO are fine.  Its just his BA that is killing him.  For Vidro, his BA is what is keeping him alive.  Ignoring his BA, ignores all of his value to the team.

I almost feel sometimes that BA is becoming an underrated stat in some of the blog community.

by Edgar for Pres on Aug 1, 2007 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

LOL
I think she's still comparing the numbers from the Cardinals game she went to last week.  
RAUL HURTS THIS TEAM BY NOT PLAYING DRUMS FOR SPINAL TAP Oh, and Free Kam Mickolio!

by PositivePaul on Aug 1, 2007 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I just realized this is the second time this month
that we've let a team go back-to-back complete games on us, good lord our offense is hacktastic

by Eldukey on Aug 1, 2007 12:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Why arn't Wlad and AJones called up?
Now, I am an A's fan, and don't know the M's all too well, obviously. But hey, since we're out of it, and we hate the Angels, we're pretty much all rooting for you guys (as long as you guys don't do what the Angel fans did, IE: after winning the WS, becoming complete and utter assholes).

But shouldn't the lineup for the M's look something like this right about now?

CF Suzuki
LF Jones
3B Beltre
RF Guillen
1B Broussard
DH Balentien
C1 Johjima
2B Lopez
SS Betancourt

Looking there, I am almost tempted to either put Vidro at 2B (ick!) or call up Nick Green (.309/.348/.604/.952 @ AAA in 150 AB)

by Zonis on Aug 1, 2007 1:23 PM PDT reply actions  

For the reasons stated above.
The current Mariners are "giving it their all".

No, it doesn't make much sense.

by Jeff Sullivan on Aug 1, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hi there.
I'll will explain as much as I can to the best of my knowledge.  Suffice to say, there's what WE want and what makes sense to put the best team on the field.  And then there's what the Front Office and Management wants which often amounts to veteran presence and proven track record.

We're all rooting for our team too, but the frustrations come when the front office refuses to make the obvious moves simply because it might upset some intangible effect on the team.  In this situation, it's Adam Jones' call up and "Team Chemistry".

Then you've got players with annoyingly hulky contracts that the front office feels they have to see through.  This is where Richie Sexson and Raul Ibanez come in.  In Raul's case he's "the face of the franchise (don't ask)" and they must stick with him.  In Sexson's case he's "always been hot in the second half".

Sure, other teams and front offices have issues, but I can't think of a single combination that tries to stick with the same old stuff the entire season as much as the Mariners do.  Right now, we're the only team in the majors who is running out the same position players we broke into opening day with.  Several years ago we had the same starting rotation for a season and a half.

Shocker of all shocks, we recently had a seven game losing streak until --gasp-- McLaren made significant changes to the lineup, aka "Moving Raul Ibanez out of the 3-hole".

If we fall short of making the playoffs because our team once again scuffles in August, remember, the front office powers this team with loyalty, camraderie, and chemistry.  All of those things are more important than winning.

Supposing Adam Jones gets called up tomorrow he will most certainly be batting 9th because he's the "unproven, new kid on the block".  Of course, hitting in front of Ichiro isn't all bad.

by ThundaPC on Aug 1, 2007 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

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