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WHEN Bavasi gets fired

So, when Bavasi gets fired, do you think the Mariners will learn their lesson and go after an intelligent statistic minded GM, or will they continue to sign Bavasi 2.0?  This is just something I've been thinking about recently, I'm wondering what you guys think.

Star-divide

So, when Bavasi gets fired, do you think the Mariners will learn their lesson and go after an intelligent statistic minded GM, or will they continue to sign Bavasi 2.0?  This is just something I've been thinking about recently, I'm wondering what you guys think.

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I have said in the past
That with the current ownership, Bavasi is the best that we are going to get and I stand by it. The higher ups have entirely the wrong idea and I don't think much will change that.

by Robert on Jul 28, 2007 12:34 PM PDT reply actions  

What's with all the Bavasi hatred?
The Mariners franchise is considerably stronger now than when he took over. Jon Daniels is statistically minded and he's running the Rangers into the ground.

For all the crap he takes around here, I want to know exactly what he did that was so bad for this franchise?

by John Morgan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 28, 2007 12:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Well
Sexson
Ho Bag
Washburn
Reitsma
Big League Morrow
Vidro

by JI on Jul 28, 2007 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sexson was a bad contract,
but not disastrous. Minus sentimentality, Vidro has been quite a bit more valuable than what Seattle gave Washington to acquire him. Washburn's VORP since signing with Seattle: 40.0, Millwood, 30.7, Burnett 40.8 (with multiple injuries). Doesn't seem like such a bad signing to me. Reitsma's been a mess, that happens. Morrow has been a crucial part of our bullpen and it's debatable whether he's ever going to be a starter, so why not maximize his value? Horacio Ramirez has been a dud, bad trade, agreed. Seattle's bullpen continues to be a strength, while the rotation is in desperate need of a fifth starter. Bavasi misjudged Ramirez's ability, but the move wasn't completely senseless.

Meanwhile, the farm is much stronger. Felix has been protected. Adrian Beltre is quietly very valuable. Putz is locked up to a great contract. Ichiro resigned. Guillen was a great value signing...

And the Seattle Mariners franchise, left for dead after Gillick left the team old and barren of talent, is in the playoff hunt.

by John Morgan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 28, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree completely
but people aren't happy unless they can sit around and talk about how much better the M's would be if THEY were in charge.

Went to the game today... had a good time despite the lack of M's baserunners. M's are back to some winning baseball and it was great to see some timely longballs by some slumping hitters.

Also:
Amazed to see M-Lo put into a pressure situation that soon.

Reitsma needs to go.

HoRam pitched terribly but put up a "quality start".  Amazing.

JJ is an absolute gladiator.  I think fans should start giving a thumbs down and shouting "finish him" when he gets to 2 strikes.

by johnbai on Jul 28, 2007 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

No
The Sexson contract is a disaster. Vidro may be more valuable than Snelling and Fruto this year, but he's costing significantly more and blocking key prospects.

VORP is a terrible way to evaluate pitchers, and comparing a bad move to other bad moves isn't a great idea at any rate. Also, the main reason it's debatable whether or not Morrow will ever start is because of the way he's been handled this year, which is the FO's fault, nobody else's.

The Soriano/Ramirez trade was completely senseless. Not only did he misjudge Ho's ability, he completely missed on Soriano's value as well.

Bavasi's not the worst GM in the league, and he's improved the team, but he's done less with what he has available than we should be expecting. I don't think Bavasi deserves as much hate as he gets, but trying to defend him with this sort of argument is ludicrous.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 28, 2007 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

How, precisely, is the Sexson contract a disaster?
Vidro isn't blocking anyone at DH, nor could anyone have known that Wlad and Adam would take this sort of step forward. Ibanez is blocking Jones. The money Seattle is spending on Vidro is piffle, it's not like it kept us from signing a big free agent. We talk about millions and think of our own lives and it sounds absurd that a banjo-hitting, no knee DH is making 8 million annually, but for Seattle it was spend that money or reabsorb it into the budget. Besides, it doesn't really matter how much more Vidro cost than Snelling, that's comparing apples and oranges. Vidro may be overpaid, but Vidro plays, Snelling rehabs.

Why is VORP a terrible way to evaluate a pitcher? It may not have ton of predicative value, but it does give a good idea as to the amount of value a pitcher contributed to his team. I didn't compare Washburn to other bad signings, I compared him to his own free agent class. Considering his contract and the contracts of the other two free agents in his class of his ilk, he's been the best.

Bavasi botched the Soriano trade, but it wasn't senseless. Bavasi correctly evaluated that relief pitchers are fungible, and that most have a short shelf life. Soriano, an oft-injured setup man, frankly, didn't/doesn't have much trade value.

Morrow has one pitch--a fastball that loses 5 ticks when he starts. His destiny is not in the bullpen because he was rushed, but because he doesn't have the repertoire to last more than a couple of innings without getting shelled. If Morrow someday is able to hold his velocity for more than three innings, develops a MLB caliber second, much less third, pitch, then he, like Shaun Marcum or Braden Looper, can work his way into the rotation. Nothing he's done this year precludes him from one day being a starter--if anything, he, like Soriano, is simply not capable of being a starter.

I understand and respect meaningful criticism of Bavasi or any GM, but ragging on him every time something doesn't get done exactly how you'd like gets to be a tired shtick pretty quick. Every GM makes mistakes. We understand a thin fraction of what Bavasi does and why he does what he does. What we can expect him to do is something almost impossible to define. Bavasi has bosses that have input about things like resigning Bloomers, signing local boy Richie Sexson or retaining "face of the franchise" Ibanez. It's easy for us to say: Platoon Guillen, DFA Ibanez--but how do you sell that to the players? The local media? Howard Lincoln? How does Bavasi dictate controversial orders when he has an interim manager? Nothing he does happens in a vacuum the way our opining does.

Brass tacks, Bavasi has improved the Seattle Mariners. Seattle has a good young core, and I'm bewildered to be writing this, but a promising future. As a fan, I don't expect more.

by John Morgan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 29, 2007 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Umm...
Maybe cause Richie sucks and is getting paid 8 figures.  
*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 29, 2007 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

probably depens a persons defintion of disastrous
too me disastrous is Denny Neagle, Mike Hampton and Chan Ho Park.  If you just look at Richie in 2007 then yes, I think he is a disaster, but he did put up an OPS+ of 140 in 2005 and 120 in 2006.

When I hear disastrous, I think of a player that has a big contract and completely sucked while on the team.  Richie was good in 2006 and awesome in 2005.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 29, 2007 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Think of it like this
The ultimate goal of baseball contracts is for the team to make a profit on that player's presence there, generally by selling more tickets. Research (I can't find BBTN right now, but it's in there) shows that there are certain tiers of team (in terms of wins) and that attendance generally corresponds with the bracket your team is in - say, 'mediocre, average, contender, super-awesome' for example.

This means that revenue will look more or less like a step function when compared to wins, meaning that you should invest to take your team over certain win numbers so you jump tiers. I'm grossly oversimplifying this, but it's close enough. Richie Sexson simply hasn't done that, and now that the team has jumped up of its own accord, his contract is dragging us back. It's a failed investment.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2007 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

In order
"How, precisely, is the Sexson contract a disaster?"

$13 million per year for a guy who fell off the face of the planet at the beginning of year 3 is a disaster. Sexson can't play defence and he can't hit. Sure, he had a fantastic first year and a decent second one, both of which amounted to nothing because the team core sucked. And now the team's maturing around him, he's collapsing. Yay.

"Vidro isn't blocking anyone at DH... The money Seattle is spending on Vidro is piffle."

Vidro is blocking Ibanez's move to DH, which is blocking Adam Jones's move to LF. 8 million dollars is certainly not piffle - it's well over half the difference between Raul Ibanez and Carlos Beltran. Make moves like that constantly and your team is screwed.

"We talk about millions and think of our own lives."

Speak for yourself. I happily divorce myself from my own life when thinking about economics.

"Vidro plays, Snelling rehabs."

The problem with the Vidro trade isn't really the trade itself, it's the inability to recognise freely available talent at DH and grab it rather than spend prospects and money on an inferior product: At least when Snelling went down this year we'd have been able to replace him for free.

"Why is VORP a terrible way to evaluate a pitcher?"

VORP overrates durable mediocrity to the point it's almost scary. They almost certainly have replacement level calibrated wrong. In addition, since it's a BP stat, defence isn't filtered out properly. You'd probably be better off looking at ERA+ * innings pitched.

"I didn't compare Washburn to other bad signings, I compared him to his own free agent class."

Comparing Washburn to other bad signings is the same thing as comparing him to other free agent deals that year. It was a terrible class and sensible GMs stayed away from it. It's a shame none of our vaunted pitching prospects developed, because having to fill holes in the rotation with free agents is a hard job.

"Soriano, an oft-injured setup man, frankly, didn't/doesn't have much trade value."

You're dead wrong here. He was traded because he had a cold when the M's scouted one of his winter ball starts, and front offices around baseball were horrified about how little it took to get him.

"Morrow has one pitch--a fastball that loses 5 ticks when he starts."

His fastball was down at the end of last year because he was tired, not because he was starting. I seem to recall him hitting mid-90s at Berkeley. He also has a decent splitter and a mediocre slider, and even if he didn't have any other pitchers, the best way to develop them is to start in the minors. Morrow needs to improve his command and develop a changeup, not sit in the big league pen throwing unhittable fastballs at random. Relievers (not relief aces) are fungible.

"Nothing he does happens in a vacuum the way our opining does."

This I agree with you on. I think a decent defense of Bavasi as a GM could be made, but certain moves are completely indefensible. Your point that there are factors going on behind the scenes is a completely valid one, and I do believe that Bavasi is doing OK given his constraints. That's still not an excuse for some of the debacles that have occured on his watch.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2007 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sexson was a bright spot when the team was awful.
His decline has come, predictably, at the worst time for Seattle. But Seattle, on paper, was awful heading into 2005 and had no in-house replacement for first base. Sexson, a local guy with prodigious power, was a sensible signing, even if everyone and their dog knew that he'd become a millstone at some point. If running a franchise was only about winning, signing Sexson would have never made sense, but Bavasi's job isn't just winning, it's satisfying a fan base, a customer base. Sexson was a decent stop-gap, a Washington boy that 2 years ago gave fans something to root for, a jersey to buy, that is now hurting the franchise with his poor play. Calling his signing a disaster or a debacle is overwrought.

And that's where we are at loggerheads. I feel like you are hyperbolizing Bavasi's failures and downplaying his successes. We could quibble about the proper evaluation of replacement level or exactly what freely available talent was, in fact, available this last off-season--subjects that I doubt either of us is truly qualified or committed enough to do justice--until daybreak (or, I guess, nightfall, in your case) but we'll end up nowhere.    

Here's the thing, though, when you say:

He was traded because he had a cold when the M's scouted one of his winter ball starts, and front offices around baseball were horrified about how little it took to get him.

You are telling me that you're willing to buy into a far flung rumor to confirm your belief that Bavasi is a boob. Instead of believing that the fact that, to quote Dave Cameron, "I believe that it's only a matter of time until [Soriano] needs surgery on his arm again, and that he's one of the highest risk pitchers in MLB" may have greatly reduced his trade value, you think that Bavasi made a panic move because Soriano was suffering from a cold. I think Bavasi made a bad move, you think he did something unconscionably stupid. I respect you, Graham, you're consistently one of the better spoken, better informed posters, but I don't respect that opinion. To me, it seems irrational, even prejudiced.

OK, I'm going to bed. Good discussion. I'll check back tomorrow hoping to read your response, but I should get back to my neglected blog--so I've said my piece about Bavasi for now. I'm sure we'll revisit this subject sometime in the future.

Cheers.

by John Morgan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 29, 2007 3:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ok
I believe, as I've said right above this particular thread, that the primary goal of a gaseball contract is to make money. While it's true that Sexson drew more fans to the ballpark in '05 than, say, AJ Zapp would have, I don't think that would outweigh the negative impact he's having right now. The M's are sitting on the cusp of being true contenders, which is where the real money is to be made, and Sexson's not helping them get there. If you look at the deal purely on based on its tactical merits, it's actually a pretty good one. I just believe that the strategy, the root cause of the move, is horribly flawed.

You're right in that I'm overlooking his good moves - I was deliberately avoiding them, because what I'm trying to do here is to give insight into why certain parties seem to despise Bavasi as much as they do, not give a proper evaluation of his skills. Perhap's I'm being too zealous in denouncing him, so I'll make that up by saying that I cannot heap enough praise on him for the way he's handled Ichiro, Putz, the kids, and (generally) the farm system.

I trust that rumour about the Soriano trade because I believe Jeff (I can't find the post in question right now, so if I've imagined it, oops!), not because I want to believe Bavasi's an idiot. I really don't - I think Bavasi's a decent GM who occaisionally makes bonehead moves. I wouldn't call myself a Bavasi hater, I just understand where all the anger comes from.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2007 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ummm
Soriano for HoRam, anything for Vidro, still not having Jones called up and in our OF.

by jullberg on Jul 28, 2007 12:43 PM PDT reply actions  

not having Jones called up yet
is easily fixable, I don't agree with Jones not being up yet, but Bavasi isn't ruining the franchise with this move.

Agreed on the other moves.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 28, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

more of the same
Bavasi is to his replacement as Grover is to McClaren...

by John @ Lookout Landing on Jul 28, 2007 12:47 PM PDT reply actions  

We're 9 games over .500 and the team
has steadily improved since he took over.

What makes people think that ownership is going to conclude, "Bavasi sucks.  Fire him."?

by Gomez on Jul 28, 2007 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

If the Mariners significantly falter
If the Mariners end up around the .500 mark I can easily see Bavasi getting canned.

by nfreakct on Jul 28, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno
From 63 wins to 69 to 78 to 81+ and legitimate contention, if even for a spell... hard to give a compelling argument to the general public for canning the GM after that.

We know better... but can you expect the rest of the uninformed front office and general public to know better?

by Gomez on Jul 28, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see management changing hiring practices
until Lincoln resigns, is fired, or dies.  Same type of GMs, same type of managers until then.  
We are the holler men, we are the glove men, mouthpiece filled with plug: ptoo!

by Celadus on Jul 28, 2007 3:11 PM PDT reply actions  

George Costanza
I've been told that he's found a way to get Griffey and Bonds in the same outfield without giving up too much.

by JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo on Jul 28, 2007 3:24 PM PDT reply actions  

hahaha
I remember that episode.

COSTANZA FOR GM

WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 28, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure you can peg Morrow
on Bavasi

It was Hargrove that really wanted him up in the majors to help out his bullpen

Shop smart......Shop s-mart...... YOU GOT THAT!!!!

by Scruffy Lefty on Jul 28, 2007 4:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Bavasi is Hargrove's boss
if you can't say no to a subordinate, you don't deserve to lead.

by Matthew on Jul 28, 2007 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can't Say No
Matthew: On another blog I read that the problem wasn't that of saying no, it was that of having to go through Lincoln before being allowed to say no, and then not being able to pull the trigger until Lincoln talked to Hargrove to hear his side of the story.

If Bavasi had been keenly aware of having to jump through such hoops, he might have never taken the job in the first place.

We are the holler men, we are the glove men, mouthpiece filled with plug: ptoo!

by Celadus on Jul 28, 2007 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Two points
  1. Being a good boss means knowing when to defer to the wishes of a subordinate
  2. Bavasi doesn't have the same freedom of action that other GM's do. He has his superiors (non-baseball men) hovering over him constantly and he had no power over his field manager (Hargrove). Grover could defy Bavasi because Hargrove wasn't accountable to him but to Lincoln & co.

by Aaron @ Lookout Landing on Jul 28, 2007 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

so?
  1. and knowing when to put your foot down and say no is important too, more important even.
  2. since we cannot know the particulars about who pulled what strings on what authority for each individual player move, the default blame/credit has to go to Bavasi. Which is a big reason part one is important.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2007 6:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

re: so?
  1. Yes, but that still doesn't mean that a good GM doesn't respect the opinions of his field manager and not defer to him on occasion. And since Morrow was a big part of our early success, I'm not sure how pinning him on Bavasi makes Bill look bad.
  2. If during spring training Mike Hargrove openly states that he's excited about the thought of having Brandon Morrow pitch for him, it's safe to say that Grover had a part in deciding that Morrow would make the team to begin the year.

by Aaron @ Lookout Landing on Jul 29, 2007 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Baseball doesn't work that way.
Only the Athletics and Red Sox do.
Detect-O-Vision

Favor the Bold

by IcebreakerX on Jul 29, 2007 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

really?
you think all 27 other GMs in question cannot make a decision about who is on the active roster against the wishes of the field manager?

really?

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2007 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is all...
Very well documented in Moneyball.

The Athletics are one of few teams where the GM shoves orders down the throat of the field manager.

I'm not saying that 27 teams don't step on the manager's toes, but that it's not an everyday thing on other teams. And, for a long time, it has never happened with the Seattle Mariners.

Detect-O-Vision

Favor the Bold

by IcebreakerX on Jul 29, 2007 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

re: really?
It's not a matter of "can't" or "can", of course GM's can make decisions on the their own. But the fact is that almost every field manager has some level of input when it comes to roster decisions (as they should), and some guys have a LOT of say. Do you think Walt Jocketty doesn't ask Tony La Russa what he thinks before a decision is made? Do you think that Bobby Cox doesn't have a voice in the Braves organization? Of course they do, and we know for a fact that Lou Piniella played a big role in deciding what players to acquire and what prospects to call up (and when) even when Pat Gillick was here. Hargrove isn't in the same class as those managers, but he still has a ton of clout which is a big reason why he was hired in the first place. He had a lot more credibility than the guy he replaced, Bob Melvin, and that means he had a lot more power in shaping the roster.

by Aaron @ Lookout Landing on Jul 29, 2007 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

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