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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

Deadline Rumors

While looking thru various spots I came across this article indicating the M's have shown some interest in Livan Hernandez.

I imagine as the trade deadline gets closer we'll be hearing a bunch of other rumors as well, some credible some far fetched, some just making you shake your head.  

I thought I would start this diary as a place where all these little rumors could go, instead of a new diary for each new rumor.

Anyways in regard to Livan Hernandez... don't really see that as much of an upgrade to what we currently have, 20 hrs, and a 4.77 Era a 56/62 bb/k ratio... doesn't make me all that interested, especially when he doesn't off-set things by being a groundball pitcher.

http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1185164709129720.xml&coll=1

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Ian Snell
I read on BP that Ian Snell could be available for a power-hitting prospect. Snell for Wlad? Yes please! Snell for Jones....mmmmmaaaaybe.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by ConorGlassey on Jul 23, 2007 9:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Snell for Wlad?
uh yeah.

by Dylan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 23, 2007 10:06 AM PDT reply actions  

Snell for Jones?
Heck yes.

I am not one to trade Jones lightly, but Snell is a top of the rotation, young, cheap pitcher.  Essentially he's the Jones version of a pitcher and so if we could do a straight up trade, I'd do it in a heart beat.  If we could get him for Wlad than do it, but even if it's for Jones, we have hitting, we need pitching and Snell and Felix at the top is one sick 1-2 combo.

by jullberg on Jul 23, 2007 10:26 AM PDT reply actions  

Wouldn't be
a straight up deal..... Snell is a successful major league pitcher... Jones is a successful AAA hitter with potential.  Pitching is more valuable then hitting which makes Snell more valuable then Jones by sheer default.

To get Snell you are probably looking at Jones+ 2 other prospects in the A- to B level range.  Something like Jones/Feierabend/Tui.. or similar combination.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 23, 2007 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Consider carefully.
Prospects are just that...prospect. Not all of them pan out, even the most touted.

Also, consider that the team has few pitching prospects. Trading for Snell would give us something that we have no prospects for.

All I'd say is don't reject out of hand...

by rtang on Jul 23, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wasn't
rejecting it... just saying it would take more than just Jones to get Snell.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 23, 2007 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, sorry...
I knew what you meant, and I expressed it badly.

Giving up three prospects is a big step, but it's not an automatic DO-NOT-CONSIDER...

by rtang on Jul 23, 2007 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

True, so why not send over
Wlad plus a few of our AAAA arms? the Ho is a good candidate - he'll be the one being replaced. Feierabend, sure. Baek - why not? A package of one of our heavy hitting outfielders and a couple of consistently tolerable AAAA arms seems fair. Or that's just me being hopeful.
there should be three levels of terror alert: Jesus Christ, Goddammit, and fuck me! -LB

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 23, 2007 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

yep...
Ho isn't a commodity at this point, and with Baek out until who knows when he's not a commodity for teams either.

Someone who could end up a commodity if he can string together a couple good starts in AAA though could be Rohrbaugh.  Downside is he's a finesse pitcher from the right hand side, but his k/9 isn't horrible at AAA though he does have a long ball problemo right now.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 23, 2007 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I couldn't disagree more
Ho has way less than zero value.

by Trent on Jul 23, 2007 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

do you really think so?
I mean in the eyes of an organization, not a fan? I mean, yeah, he's been bad, but he's a lefty on the right side of 30 with pretty good velocity. Maybe someone will see an obvious flaw they can fix.

I'm sure I'm just being delusional, but it seems to me that teams find a way to see value in guys like him. Else how does he still have a job?

there should be three levels of terror alert: Jesus Christ, Goddammit, and fuck me! -LB

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 23, 2007 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

People were shocked when we traded for him.
That says pretty much everything right there. The Braves were probably going to non-tender him had we not called them up.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 23, 2007 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lowe-Varetek?
*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 23, 2007 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seconded.
Honestly.

There were so many other teams interested in Soriano, that BB could've gotten so much more for him...

Baseball is 90% Mental. The other half is statistics...

by PositivePaul on Jul 23, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Uh what?
Giving up Raphael Soriano was worse than giving up Lowe and Varitek?  Be serious here.

by Dylan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 23, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rafael
sorry.

by Dylan @ Lookout Landing on Jul 23, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Durable, middle of the rotation starter, and an
All-Star starting catcher for Healthcliff Slocumb

or

Right-handed set-up man (possible future closer) for Ho.

Varitek-Lowe is still a FAR worse trade than the Soriano deal.

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

WTF?
Yes, the Slocumb for Lowe/Varitek deal was horrible at the time, and even worse in retrospect.  Giving ANYTHING up for Slocumb was a horrible idea, similar to the Vidro deal.  But Varitek wasn't going anywhere in the M's organization, let alone projectable as an 'All Star starting catcher' -- and Lowe wasn't much of a prospect either.  Just because they blossomed beyond reasonable expectation in other organizations doesn't mean that they were top-notch prospects at the time.  

The thing that, for me, makes the Soriano deal worse, though, is that Bavasi totally panicked on the last day of the winter meetings, and gave up one of his best trade chips for a guy who was going to be released. Teams may or may not have been interested in Soriano, and my biggest gripe was that Bavasi evidently heard that Soriano had a bad outing in the winter league, ignoring other reports that it was likely due to the flu or something.  When I asked Bavasi about what else was on the table for Soriano, there were a few other things he mentioned, but felt like Ho-Ram was a "#3 starter" that the Braves org really hated to let go of.

That's like saying Hey, we really hate to let go of Cibney Bello, because he's really going to be a great #3 starter, and proceed to trade him to the Pirates for Ian Snell.  Okay, it's maybe not to THAT magnitude, but it's pretty darn close.

And the M's BP in 1997 was gawd awful.  Terrible.  Indeed Slocumb's addition proved to be an upgrade, even if his performance was less-than-overwhelming overall.  Combined with the additions of Timlin and Spoljaric, it improved a little bit, and helped guide the M's into the playoffs.  The Soriano trade didn't help the rotation, and it led to Morrow being used in the 'pen instead of being developed as a starter in the minors.  So, that leads to TWO holes in the rotation -- one in the now, and one in the future.  If Soriano had been held onto, (ignoring a possible trade to another team for a real starter), he'd be in the pen and we might be clamoring just as strongly for Brandon Morrow to join the rotation as much as we're clamoring for Adam Jones in the OF...

The Soriano deal was botched on so many levels, it's way worse in my mind than the Slocumb for Lowe/Varitek deal.  And, besides, in my mind, I always view that trade as Lowe/Varitek for Moyer and Slocumb for Bragg.  Takes a hell of a lot of the sting out of it.

Baseball is 90% Mental. The other half is statistics...

by PositivePaul on Jul 23, 2007 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I see exactly where you're coming from,
But I'm still not sure I agree.

How about we just agree that both trades sucked royally?

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

what both Graham and Paul said
in '97 we traded prospects at the deadline for RP help which we badly needed. That both prospects worked out was a minor miracle, and certainly not foreseeable, especially given their performance to date. It's like bitching about the David Ortiz for Dave Hollins trade.

Soriano for Horacio was flat out clinically stupid. There's no excuse for it on any level.

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

He is being serious
Varitek OPS:

Age 23: 0.701, AA
Age 24: 0.756, AA
Age 25 (pre-trade) : 0.772, AAA
Age 25 (post trade): 0.602, AAA

(for comparison, Rob Johnson is OPS'ing .682 in his age 23 season at AAA)

Lowe ERA:

Age 22: 0.93, RK; 6.08, AA
Age 23: 3.05, AA; 4.54, AA
Age 24 (pre-trade) : 3.45, AAA; 6.96, MLB
Age 24 (post-trade): 2.37, AAA; 3.38, MLB

by Graham MacAree on Jul 23, 2007 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Still,
As much as I loved Soriano, he's fairly easily replaceable (Green).

Would you trade Rob Johnson and let's say...  Tillman for the current equivalent of Slocumb?

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Green isn't Raffy
Green is great and all because he was freely available talent, but Raffy is dynamite and able to pitch to both dexterity of hitters. Green can't pitch to lefties.

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lowe, pre-surgery?
"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

mayyyybe
but I do think we're all a little enamored with burst on the scene Mark Lowe and a little unrealistic about how he would have performed over the long haul, even without the injury.

Even if, it's no excuse to give Raffy away. Top RP go for a high asking price. Our GM gave one away for a guy more likely to be cut than offered an arbitration contract.

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

It sucked, I agree.
But you have to admit Raffy wasn't exactly stellar at staying healthy himself.

While we should have gotten MUCH more, he was a high-risk kind of guy given his history..

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

So was Ho.
It's not like we traded for a paragon of durability.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 23, 2007 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Weren't Ho's injuries more random?
"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

No I think
sucking was predictable.

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's okay...
I'm totally running out of gas on the whole argument.

I'm pretty sure my ass was kicked long ago, but I was too stubborn to give up!

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

they're both bad, horrible trades
just the slocumb one had some (read: bad) justification to it and it just looks worse given hindsight.

The Horacio trade had no justification and was so widely panned when it happened that hindsight has nothing to do with it.

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly.
"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Aren't all injuries basically random?
Whatever you call them, the fact of the matter is that Ho only made 84 starts in four years before getting dealt.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 23, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I meant that they weren't all to one joint,
or something like that.

Like I said, I think I lost this debate a long time ago!

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Opened up a can of foul worms.
I can never stop complaining about this trade.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 23, 2007 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dont get Jeff angry...
you wouldn't like him when he's angry...

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't root for any Anaheim teams Jeff,
I swear!  Please don't hurt me!
"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just wanted to post
this because I wanted to see how skinny the post can get on the side of the page.
"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Jul 26, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have to see this
What if I type a reeeeeeeeeeaaaaally long word?

by Katal LM on Jul 26, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

1!!!
!!!

(although my long sig probably throws this off)

RAUL HURTS THIS TEAM BY NOT PLAYING DRUMS FOR SPINAL TAP Oh, and Free Kam Mickolio!

by PositivePaul on Jul 27, 2007 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Varitek was a two time first round pick.
He was a very hot prospect, notwithstanding a slow start with a wooden bat.

by Paytheline on Jul 24, 2007 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

And Michael Garciaparra was a first round pick too
And has a brother who's pretty famous.

Your point is???

Baseball is 90% Mental. The other half is statistics...

by PositivePaul on Jul 24, 2007 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Michael Garciaparra was a first round pick to us.
and no one else in baseball.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

by JY on Jul 24, 2007 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ignore the players.
The philosophy and thought process that went into the Soriano trade were far far worse than those that went into the Slocumb trade.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 23, 2007 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you sure?
The Slocumb trade is famous because the Sox asked for either Lowe or Varitek, and we were so dumb we gave them both!

That's an extremely horrible thought process if you ask me.

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree that the whole Soriano situation
was horribly screwed up. And I agree it was a lousy trade.

I guess it's the difference between purposely paying $7,000.00 for a beater car because you love it even though it sucks, and paying $7,000.00 for a beater car because you horribly misread the price tag, and mistakenly thought "well, this is how moch a beater car costs this year".

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Soriano
had a killer May but has been beat up by the opposition in June and July. His K rate is down about 2K/9 from last season. Injury popping up again?

It may be a bad trade but who else were we supposed to get for an oft-injured, possibly mentally screwed up (from the liner to the head), set-up man? I think that Green and to a lesser extent Morrow have actually done a pretty good job in comparison this year with Raffy.

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Jul 23, 2007 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm Nervous......
Bavasi is liable to trade the entire farm system for Contreas and a bag of magic beans....or just the damn beans.....I still remember the Soriano for Ho trade....Bavasi has a way of seeing value where there is none, not a trait I admire at the deadline.
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jul 23, 2007 11:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Don't be nervous.
Bavasi is a solid evaluator of talent and value.  Case in point:
  1. Vidro
  2. Ho
  3. Ramon Santiago (for Carlos Guillen)
  4. Player A
  5. Rich Aurilia
 
Fact: In 2000, Reds' GM Jim Bowden declared second baseman Pokey Reese as "Untouchable" in the Griffey trade negotiations.

by Hackman Leonard on Jul 23, 2007 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh God!
I forgot about the Guillen move.....Pass me the Jack Daniels and take everything off of my calendar until the 1st and a NW day of sobriety for Mariner fans.....
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jul 23, 2007 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

the Guillen trade was in the works
before he came aboard. He really didn't have a hand in that
Shop smart......Shop s-mart...... YOU GOT THAT!!!!

by Scruffy Lefty on Jul 23, 2007 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

ramblings
I for one would not be opposed to Seattle picking up Livan Hernandez.  Livan is a proven playoff pitcher who would be an effective pickup as our number 5 starter.  Now granted..there are MUCH better pitchers out there, but aren't really available.

Livan is 0-0 in two starts with a 3.55 ERA in his career against LAA
He is 3-0 with a 6.86 ERA vs. Texas and 2-2 with a 4.86 ERA vs. Oakland.  These numbers are not blinding..but lets compare them with other "available" pitchers.

I like the idea of Jose Contreras.  However, Contreras will require a larger return and is four years older than Livan.  Livan is only 32.

In his career, Contreras is 3-3 with a 3.63 ERA vs. LAA in 7 starts.  1-1 with a 6.89 ERA
in four starts vs. Texas and 3-3 with a 6.00 ERA vs. Oakland in 7 starts.

I really liked hearing the Mariners going after Matt Morris in free agency last year.

Morris is 2-0 with a 2.08 ERA vs. LAA, 1-0 with 0.00 ERA in one start vs. Texas in 2006, and 2-0 with a 2.81 in 2 starts vs. Oakland.

Looking at those numbers, Morris is the obvious choice since he has never lost to any of our AL West opponents.  However, Morris, like Contreras would probably require a large return.

I look at this season as I did with 95.  What moves did we make in 95?
May 15 we traded Roger Salkeld to the Reds for Tim Belcher
May 21 we traded Wilson Delgado and Shawn Estes for Salomon Torres
July 18 we traded a PTBNL (Jeff Darwin) to the White Sox for Warren Newsome
July 31 we traded Ron Villone version 1.0 and Marc Newfield to SD for Andy Benes and Greg Keagle
August 15 we traded a PTBNL (Jim Converse) to KC for Vince Coleman.

Looking through that list, we traded Roger Salkeld (1st round, 3rd pick) for a piece of our playoff rotation.  Salkeld went 8-5 in 29 games with Cincinnatti in '96 and never made it back.
We traded Shawn Estes (1st round, 11th pick) for Salomon Torres who went 3-8 in 13 starts and was sent to Montreal in 1997.

Marc Newfield (1st round #6 overall pick) who was supposed to be a mainstay here in Seattle (see: Adam Jones) was sent to San Diego for Benes.  Benes was a great pickup as he provided depth and a legitimate second solid starter behind Johnson, but he left the very next season as a free agent. At the time he was 4-7 with a 4.17 ERA.  He arrived in Seattle and went 7-2 in 12 starts.  He had an ERA over 5, but again it doesn't matter if you win the game 12-11, you still WIN the game.

Newfield was supposed to solve all the problems in LF and create an outfield of 40 home run hitters. He hit 12 homeruns between Seattle and San Diego in 95 which was his career high.  He was out of the majors by the end of 1997 when he finished his career in Milwaukee.

What I am getting at, is we sacrificed THREE number one picks in 1995 to put together a team that went to the ALDS.  I am not advocating that this would work again, but if Wlad or Jones ends up leaving for a pitcher that completes our puzzle...stranger things CAN happen.

by tkballer22 on Jul 23, 2007 11:47 AM PDT reply actions  

Man...
you're basing your entire analysis on some extremely small sample sizes there.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Jul 23, 2007 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

But wait,
I was under then impression that small sample size is the ONLY sample size :)

by Limerickx on Jul 23, 2007 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Livan
Is only 32?

Damn, it feels like he's been around FOREVER

by Limerickx on Jul 23, 2007 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

32 in
dog years....
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jul 23, 2007 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

So in human years....
he's 224 years old?  wow.

by jimmimoose1 on Jul 23, 2007 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

a quote to share
I will never claim to be an expert at judging players, I'm guess one of the dumbest LL when come to reading stats. But after the past off season I am fearful of the adjective "durable" when describing a pitcher.

"Livan Hernandez is not without his flaws. He's already allowed 20 home runs this season in 20 starts. He doesn't throw very hard, and his ERA this year is 4.77. But he is durable."

I love the fat man's picnic

by InSpokane on Jul 23, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

That would make him 4 and a half in ppl yrs
Would Selig notice if we had a Frankensteinesque person in Wladam Jonentien

by andyboi on Jul 28, 2007 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some prospects bust.
It happens. That doesn't mean you throw them away on the trash that's currently available. If you have two identical teams with identical resources, with one of them stockpiling and the other constantly trading them for C-grade additions, I can tell you with absolute certainty who's going to be better in the long run.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 23, 2007 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice analysis.
It is scary to recall that Marc Newfield was similarly touted (check out his 94' stats with Calgary) to be the next Seattle superstar, like Jones.

It's hard to believe Livan Hernandez is only 32.  I had him pegged as closer to 42.  He's a proven post-season winner if nothing else.

 

Fact: In 2000, Reds' GM Jim Bowden declared second baseman Pokey Reese as "Untouchable" in the Griffey trade negotiations.

by Hackman Leonard on Jul 23, 2007 12:04 PM PDT reply actions  

oops, forgot to 'reply to'
Fact: In 2000, Reds' GM Jim Bowden declared second baseman Pokey Reese as "Untouchable" in the Griffey trade negotiations.

by Hackman Leonard on Jul 23, 2007 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Mark Teixeira seems to be leaving Texas
for the best offer come the deadline. You want lineup solutions, getting Teixeira allows us to replace Raul with Jones and not lose a LH bat, also allows us to remove Sexson somehow someway.

As for pitching, I'm holding onto my Burnett idea. Ian Snell is intriguing though, and DL is an idiot, but I don't see them making a stupid trade there.

by Matthew on Jul 23, 2007 1:08 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree on all three
Teix would be a solid grab, but would Texas deal within the division? Or more importantly, would Bill?

And Snell would be a brilliant move as he is a young, cheap and good pitchers. Therefore, it's not happening.

by Trent on Jul 23, 2007 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Snell
is having a rough July but overall he would be a great addition. I second that there is no way it happens.
"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Jul 23, 2007 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

As a D-Backs fan, I must say
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT TRADE FOR LIVAN HERANDNEZ!

I also don't like the idea of Bavasi dealing with Byrnes, who is a pretty smart guy.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jul 23, 2007 1:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Sun Times reporting
Jermaine Dye and Jose Contreras are getting long looks from our scouts..  Contreras is like 93 years old and I am not so sure Dye is much of an upgrade at this point in his career - especially for the 7million dollar price tag

by seattlesundevil on Jul 23, 2007 2:26 PM PDT reply actions  

But... but... But....
Dye is an experienced veteran!

If I'm going to war, I want to go with my Grandpa who served in WWII, he has way more veteran experience than my cousin who's just finished basic training 1st in his class.

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

haha
Im just so frustrated..i know they are rumors (which are likely untrue) but it just seems like our FO looks past what we already have.  Have they looked at what Dye has done this year?  We dont have enough underperforming .230 hitters? wtf

by kentroyals5 on Jul 23, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know.
We are NOT a locked in playoff team, just trying to add one little piece to put us over the top.

We need a major upgrade to try to stay in contention, and we have at least one (if not two or three) very helpful parts sitting right down the road in Tacoma.

"I'm not familiar with this type of... thing I'm seeing"

by Thingray on Jul 23, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

hmmm
i tell you what, of course i'm not that excited about either of these players.  but if the mariners could pull off a buy-low trade that didn't cost us any major prospects, there are reasons to hope that both dye and contreras would bounce back this year.

dye is currently sporting a .237 BABIP, whereas his career avg is .301.  his isop is consistent with his career numbers, and his walks and strikeouts are relatively normal.  the one note of worry is that his LD% is down significantly, from a career avg of 18.9 to 16.5 this year.  

contreras, on the other hand, is certainly a geezer, but he's been remarkable unlucky this season as well.  his BABIP is .326, as opposed to a career .290 mark, and his LOB% is an absolutely AWFUL 59.3% (most pitchers leave around 70% of their runners on base).  his 5.76 era totally sucks, but a FIP of 4.57 is much more interesting.

like i said, i obviously don't want these guys, they're not really difference makers.  but, if we could somehow acquire them for something less than elite prospects, they could be potential upgrades over some of the other scrubs we're running out there (Ibanez for Dye, and Horam for Contreras).  

i'd still rather see Jones and Snell.

by jimmimoose1 on Jul 23, 2007 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hell,
I'm semi-interested in Dye if he's cheap based on the fact that he's guaranteed to be a Type A free agent. That alone is worth taking a risk, although I'm not sure that he'd be that much better than Jones.

Much rather take a risk on a guy like Teix who you might able to flip for a guy like Bedard at the end of the year.

by Trent on Jul 23, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

How much do you think
it'd actually take to get Tex?  I'm sure they want pitching...which we don't really have.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 23, 2007 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't even know where to start
but I'm sure that Wlad and Clement would probably be starting points.

by Trent on Jul 23, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah
i think it'd have to be part of a three-team deal to get teix.  our needs/surpluses don't really match up that well with texas.  especially with the division factor....

by jimmimoose1 on Jul 23, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Make D-Train right handed
and take away the leg kick.

That's Livan Hernandez.

No thanks.

by Gomez on Jul 23, 2007 2:35 PM PDT reply actions  

If he could throw 260 innings
while allowing fewer than 5 runs a start, I'd find that exciting too!

by Gomez on Jul 23, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, where's Jerry nowadays?
Or did he just go and change his username to AK1984...
Baseball is 90% Mental. The other half is statistics...

by PositivePaul on Jul 23, 2007 3:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Naw. AK's posts are way too short
As incitatory as he is, AK at least can make a point in a couple paragraphs.

by Gomez on Jul 23, 2007 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jerry always seems to disappear until the
off season. It's weird.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jul 23, 2007 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Man
Wish I could be missed, like Jerry (sniff, sniff). Hope y'all are doing great!

by kva15 on Jul 24, 2007 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Out of the three
Livan, Contreras, or Dye.  I would take Contreras.  He's not good but he's not bad and we might be able to get him for not much since he's due 10 million each of the next two years.  I mean if we are going to get one of the three, I guess this is the less shitty option.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 23, 2007 3:41 PM PDT reply actions  

blah
it seems like every trade deadline is filled with crap these days.  Let's bring back Jose Offerman and Rey Sanchez.  I'm sure they still have something left in the tank.
"Players have two things to do. Play and keep their mouths shut." - Sparky Anderson

by Omerta on Jul 23, 2007 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sure glad we really need a pitcher
because our lineup is SOOOOOOO awesome!!!!!
*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 24, 2007 5:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Any interest in A's pitchers?
As you might imagine, there are plenty of trade speculation threads over on AN.  Given what a lousy supply of starting pitching there is this deadline, some of us have wondered what we could get if we actually gave up one of our good pitchers.

Would the M's be interested in a guy like Gaudin?  What would you give up for him? Jones? Balentien? Clement? Some combination?

Same question for all the other A's starters.  We've got almost every variety imaginable:

  • young with lots of promise, great start but fallen off a bit lately
  • not flashy, but solid and reliable; better than anyone else being offered this summer
  • very good in April and May, now absolutely dreadful (clearance item, 50% off!)
  • converted reliever, mixed results but pretty good lately
  • electric stuff, could be superstar except that he's perpetually injured
  • veteran due off the DL soon, hasn't pitched all year, but hey, at least you recognize his name
  • one of the best in the league; probably unavailable, but with Billy Beane, anyone is available for the right offer.
visiting A's fan (Shoreline resident)

by iglew on Jul 24, 2007 11:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Chad Gaudin isn't really that good.
I'd maybe you a B- prospect for him, but nothing more.

Haren I'd obviously give up alot for, because he's awesome.

Fat Fuck I wouldn't give up any of the afore mentioned prospects for, but I might do something. Of course, he would have to bow before Ichiro and apologize profusely for laying his hands on him.

Harden is the Mark Prior of the AL. No thanks.

Kennedy, meh no thanks.

Loaiza would have to come with a bit of money attached to him. That's a bad contract.

But in the end, I doubt Beane would deal within the division anyways.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jul 25, 2007 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Blanton's mom
says he isn't fat, just big boned.
visiting A's fan (Shoreline resident)

by iglew on Jul 25, 2007 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

My fear is
Beane trading with Bavasi would end up being like a pro con-man swindling a kid out of their new mountain bike, all the candy in their pocket, and their Nintendo DS for $1.50 and a comic book he found in the dumpster that's got a foul smell and is missing 60% of the pages, under the premise that the comic is supposedly rare, when it's morel like ripe.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 25, 2007 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also
Trades within the division don't happen, especially during the season.

by Gomez on Jul 25, 2007 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

More fluffy bullshit
this time from Hickey.

To clarify a few things for Hickey and everyone else who reads this:

  • The M's aren't watching the White Sox because of Contreras and Vazquez. Believe me. They have much higher aspirations that would probably piss us off anyway.
  • Dontrelle Willis' value is so low even Bill Bavasi couldn't mess this one up. Rumor has it Tommy John might be required for his increasingly sore elbow.
  • Livan Hernandez is likely staying since the chances RJ is on the shelf for the season is pretty good.
  • The M's are looking at relievers, but were really at the Astros game for a reason yesterday, Jason Jennings.
  • Regarding Wandy: wouldn't it be wonderful if the guys who get paid to write about the Ms for a living didn't have to make bullshit up for attention?

by Trent on Jul 25, 2007 11:50 PM PDT reply actions  

probably Dye
in other words, a righty outfield bat unlikely to outproduce Jones or Balentien.

by hcoguy on Jul 26, 2007 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes please.
I think we have a better chance at trading for Babe Ruth 1921.

by JI on Jul 26, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Though it'd be cool
to have the M's represented frequently in the Dugout... probably not.

by Gomez on Jul 26, 2007 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would really enjoy
TRADING FOR THAT SLUGGER JI

JIM THOME

by Limerickx on Jul 26, 2007 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

I WOULD HAVE TO
RELINQUISH MY SCREENED NAME TO THAT HOLLOWED SLUGGER BUT METHINKS IT WOULD WELL BE WORTH THE EFFORT.

by JI on Jul 26, 2007 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Uhhh,
Vazquez is good.  I'd give up anyone not named Jones or Triunfel for him.

That is, if he decides he wants to play on the West Coast.  For some reason, he hates it.

by tait644 on Jul 26, 2007 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Never said Vazquez wasn't a good pitcher
but he has absolutely zero interest in playing for any West Coast team, therefore, no team should be wasting resources scouting him. It's pointless.

by Trent on Jul 26, 2007 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

you know who I wouldn't mind getting?
Todd Coffey. He shouldn't cost much of anything and he could be a more split neutral version of Sean Green.

by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 11:41 AM PDT reply actions  

besides
how could a guy with a name like that not play in Seattle?

it'll give all the people at HH aneurysms over the hilarity and then we won't have to bother with them again.

by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

what ever..
happened to the speculation that we traded Broussard for Coffey back in spring training sometime?

by CKel on Jul 26, 2007 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

DOV
stopped making stuff up?

by Trent on Jul 26, 2007 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh
Jeff Clement is stuck behind Kenji, that's funny.
Free Adam Jones

by bluemax on Jul 26, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

He blows a lot more than I thought he did
For some reason I figured he was a decent pitcher.  I was wrong.

When are we getting Moyer back?  I'm tired of all this.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 26, 2007 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Question
What is a good base line for whip?
Everyone but Ichiro makes an out everyday

by InSpokane on Jul 26, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok
BAA is not good either right?

BB/K

Everyone but Ichiro makes an out everyday

by InSpokane on Jul 26, 2007 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

BB/K is good
K/9 is good, BB/9 is good, GB% is good. In addition BABIP is useful, HR/FB is useful to see how fluky somebody is.  All that said...don't worry, still take a peak at WHIP and ERA, I won't tell.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 26, 2007 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh and off the top of my head
BABIP ~ .300
HR/FB ~ 10%
for a pitcher is normal

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 26, 2007 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you guys
Everyone but Ichiro makes an out everyday

by InSpokane on Jul 26, 2007 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

While we are asking questions
What are Bad/normal/good/great numbers for OBP, SLG and OPS?

by Robert on Jul 26, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay.
In a neutral ballpark (not Safeco):

OBP: sub-.330 is bad, .330-.350 is normal, .350-.380 is good, .380+ is great

SLG: sub-.410 is bad, .410-.440 is normal, .450-.500 is good, .470+ is great (better to look at isolated power - SLG minus BA - than SLG by itself, though)

OPS: sub-.740 is bad, .740-.800 is normal, .800-.900 is good, .900+ is great

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 26, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Have I ever said I can't stand OPS
and no I'm not Joe Morgan.  I have better reasons than it's an "invidividual stat instead of a team stat".

I just think it's over used and not all that accurate as a guage of hitters run prodruction.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

is it supposed to be?
I just think it's over used and not all that accurate as a guage of hitters run prodruction.

I'm not sure whether OPS is supposed to be a measure of run production, is it?  That's a serious question, I don't really know.

It seems to me that since OPS measures on-base percentage (which is not a run-producing stat) plus slugging percentage (which is also not a run-producing stat), that OPS shouldn't be used to gauge run production.  

Or am I wrong in my line of thinking?

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jul 26, 2007 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Makes sense, I guess
since if you get on base via a hit, there's probably people on base ahead of you that you'll drive in.  It's all coming clear, now.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jul 26, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

The idea is
Getting On Base + Batting The runner In = OBP + SLG.  

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

But the problem is it undervalues OBP
relative to SLG.  And with really high OBP players, it severly underrates them relative to normal/low OBP high SLG guys

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like OPS saying
Carlos Lee is a better hitter than Ichiro.  Ichiro is >> even on a per PA basis.  Add in defense (which Ichiro's is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Lee) and Ichiro is vastly superious in all ways to Carlos Lee.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

GPA is your friend
Gross Production Average, a variation of OPS, but more accurate and easier to interpret. The exact formula is (OBP*1.8+SLG)/4, adjusted for ballpark factor. The scale of GPA is similar to BA: .200 is lousy, .265 is around average and .300 is a star.

by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like Wins and Losses
everything you need to know about a pitcher :)   My reason is Joe Morgan said so.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's not all you need to know.
You also need to know about his Veteran Presence.  And his grit.  And his hustle.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jul 26, 2007 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

and how well
he keeps the bases unclogged.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

wait
that's hitters not pitchers.

smacks self.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

But don't actually watch any games
other than Sunday Night Baseball, so that when people ask you about other teams and players, you can say you can't answer because you haven't seen them play.

by Gomez on Jul 26, 2007 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

No to Garland
Ripped from Rotoworld:

The Mariners are pursuing Jon Garland, according to the Chicago Tribune's Phil Rogers.

Rogers believes a deal would revolve around slugging right fielder Wladimir Balentien, rather than Adam Jones or Jeff Clement. The White Sox would surely want more than just Balentien and may ask for Ryan Feierabend and another young arm. Garland is earning $10 million this year and will make $12 million in 2008, the final year of his deal.
Source: Chicago Tribune

Oh hell no..

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Jul 26, 2007 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pitchers with lower K rates than Garland:
Aaron Cook
Carlos Silva
Chris K Sampson

Garland gives up more walks and fly balls than all three of them, too, for good measure.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 26, 2007 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

who in the hell is Chris K Sampson??
my question is probably exhibit A on why we shouldn't trade for Garland.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 26, 2007 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, and
guess how many of those pitchers are due $12m next year.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 26, 2007 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Chris K Sampson?
:(
WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 26, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know why, but I hate him already
probably because he plays for the Astros and they are incredibly annoying.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 26, 2007 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh I'll take him
but the price they want is not acceptable.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 26, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's the opinion of the below statment
"No matter what you think of Garland, there's no arguing that he'd be a huge improvement over Horacio Ramirez.  Plus, he's more than just a rental."

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Everyone but Ichiro makes an out everyday

by InSpokane on Jul 26, 2007 2:55 PM PDT reply actions  

The scary part
"Plus, he's more than just a rental."

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anyone is an upgrade over Ho.
Wlad + something + $12m next year is a ridiculous price for a pitcher whose only positive is that he isn't as bad as one of the worst starters we've ever had.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 26, 2007 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess you can go to the site for the links
but I wouldn't go to that site for the content.

by Trent on Jul 26, 2007 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just saw that
the dark side got to Baker.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 26, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey Trent
Might want to e-mail Geoff Baker the links to your sources that say D-Train's arm is in trouble.

by Gomez on Jul 26, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I added my two cents into his comment field
and sent him a couple links via email. Let's see what happens.

by Trent on Jul 26, 2007 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its amazing all those ignorant fans
who loved his idea...Then, the more informed fans took over the end of the comments portion and shot him down.  
I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Jul 26, 2007 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ugh.
Might be about time to take Baker off my reading list.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jul 26, 2007 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's from the school of
It's a different school of thought.  Some of us look at having it all, balanced, and planned out at as far as possible.  

The other school is that that you might never get this chance again for a long time.  Felix could get injured next month and never pitch again for the M's.  

So Baker is simply sticking with his personal opinion.  Now with the team is what matters, not the proposed unproven future of one position player.

That's a common split across the board on many different topics for debate.  

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Jul 26, 2007 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

But you can't go in with the caveat that
"Felix might get injured and never pitch again." That would be foolish. You could say that about any player in baseball.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jul 26, 2007 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I ain't saying it's logical
But it is a common split of debate.  Some prefer to plan on what is now.  Not some thought that we can have multiple shots when we finally develop all of our stud prospects (which is what they seriously doubt would happen).

In fact, the White house, Congress, Wall Street, most Fortune 500 CEO's, this is the common approach.  Go after what is in front of you.

Baker is not of the Minority in this type of thought, we are.

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Jul 26, 2007 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

it's one thing to jump at any reasonable playoff
chance. That's fine, to a point.

It's another to cut your arms off because without them you'll reduce drag and run faster.

The single best thing the Mariners could do to help the 2007 Mariners is to play Adam Jones in LF everyday. It simply is. The defensive upgrade alone is the biggest one move the Mariners can legitimately make.

And if you are hellbent on trading Adam Jones for a "big piece" or whatever, than make sure that guy is actually an upgrade. Dontrelle Willis isn't going to be the difference between this team and the playoffs. I doubt Dontrelle Willis could even be the difference between 88 wins and 89.

by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not defending Baker
I'm merely pointing out that "HIS" frame of thought is actually a common way of thought.

Up further someone suggest he's gone to the "darkside,"  which is not true.  His thought is pretty consistent with current thought.

He's been covering teams for a long time, and this type of practice occurs all the time, in every sport.

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Jul 26, 2007 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

just because it's common , doesn't make it smart
that's what I meant when I said "dark-side".  I thought Baker was better than the "TRADE ADAM JONES FOR WILLIS BECAUSE WILLIS IS A BIG NAME AND PROVEN" crowd, but apparently he isn't.  I still like Baker a lot, but his comment made me a bit queezy.

Not coming down on you, I know your just saying what Baker is probably thinking, and your most likely right.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOHNNY MAC?!?!

by MFAN on Jul 26, 2007 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope we get swept by Oakland
and it prevents Bavasi from making any stupid trades and then after the deadline, Jones gets called up, we sweep the Angels and go from there.

by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 3:10 PM PDT reply actions  

What makes you think he wouldn't make a dumb
move after getting swept?  It's Bavasi we're talking about here.
*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 26, 2007 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope we get swept by ...
A 5000 foot broom coming out of the bottom of a flying saucer.  The video of that would be awesome.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 26, 2007 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

We get it MFIA....
You hate Adam Jones.

You couldn't possibly be any more clear about that.

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that you're the lone M's fan that hates the Ichiro contract extension.

by PLU Tim on Jul 26, 2007 5:55 PM PDT reply actions  

We get it Tim
you like to go to extremes to prove the other person wrong.

by Mariner John on Jul 26, 2007 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm confused
I didn't say anything about Adam Jones at all in this thread other then to trade for Snell it would take more then just Jones.

I don't hate Adam Jones... I've said a number of times that he's got alot of talent.... and he'll eventually be quite a good player... I just am not as ga ga over him as some, especially on the offensive side of the ball.  Right now with the difference in bb/k ratio I think Wlad is more advanced then Jones is as a hitter.

That doesn't equate to me hating Jones, that equates to me having an opinion about him that is different then other people have right now.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 27, 2007 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

If Adam Jones didn't play good defense
I'd probably be calling for Wlad right now instead.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 27, 2007 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

HAHAHA
It's like they took every single rumor, whether substantial or not, and put it on that page.

by Gomez on Jul 27, 2007 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's see him walk straight first.
His leg fracture is more than just a simple issue.
Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Jul 27, 2007 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yuck
The rumours consist only of the craptacular Jon Garland and the vastly overrated 4th starter, Dontrelle Willis?

Stand pat, Bill.

by JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo on Jul 27, 2007 3:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Personally
I wouldn't mind if they pick up Willis or Garland or whoever..... I don't want them standing pat, I want them doing something to improve the chances of the club.  The only concern I have is what they trade away to get those guys.

Willis and Garland would both be an improvement of Ramirez and if you can improve the club do it... that doesn't mean give away whatever, but negotiate with things you can afford to give away to improve the club now, and for the future.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 27, 2007 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Check it out.
Gillick made a deadline deal!

(Iguchi)

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 27, 2007 3:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Looks like a solid deal
:surprised face:
I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Jul 27, 2007 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Iguchi hadn't fallen off a cliff
I'd be inclined to ask, "What do they do with him when Chase comes back?!"

by Gomez on Jul 27, 2007 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was about to post this too
well, at least the Phillies finally acquired an Asian player.  Go them.  Shame about the circumstances, though.  I wonder if I'll get to see Iguchi back in Japan next year?  :)

by Deanna on Jul 27, 2007 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bullpen?
What if they are looking into relief pitching because they plan on moving Morrow out of the bullpen and into the starting pitching role?  That seems like something Bavasi would do, since they seem to consider Morrow some amazing bullpen arm and he is supposedly a future starter.  

Since the bullpen is literally the least of our problems (sans Reitsma), it makes no sense for them to be actively searching for a bullpen arm.

by CapSea on Jul 27, 2007 3:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Morrow isn't starting this year.
And I wouldn't be all that surprised if he never did.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 27, 2007 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm surprised people still think
that Morrow can just jump into the rotation.  Uh....

by Gomez on Jul 27, 2007 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's ready to be in the Majors
At all.  But these are the exact illogical moves that I can see coming from a GM who struggles to prove he's adequate at making major decisions.  He's not making any blockbuster moves, like benching Sexson or Ibanez, and he's not making any blockbuster trades, like getting Teixeira.  What's left?  He is going to do something, because he made a point to bring up in some article how he regrets doing nothing as a GM for the Angels some year they were in contention and lost (Cannot locate the article link).  

by CapSea on Jul 27, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't it be
McLaren's job to bench Sexson or Ibanez..... it would be Bavasi that would dump them on the scrap heap, but unless you think McLaren has orders on who to play and who not to, the everyday lineup and the benchings should be from the manager not the GM.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 27, 2007 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I do think that, actually.
I think that is exactly what Bavasi is doing.

by CapSea on Jul 27, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

That would seem
kind of dumb on his part since he was on the hotseat going into this season.... McLaren now has more security then Bavasi (IMO), so it would seem kind of self defeating for Bavasi to order McLaren to play guys that are struggling in the middle of a long losing streak since his neck is on the line.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 27, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Look who he's playing
Mostly people that he himself traded for, signed, or hyped up.  I don't think there is any other reason Sexson is still a starter - why would a manager care that he has a bloated contract?  Contracts don't win games. Only a GM would care that he vastly overplayed for a horrible player.  

But again, that is IMHO as well.  All of this is speculation.  We haven't really heard from anyone in the Mariner's front office why they sit on their hands and do nothing, other than "chemistry."  

My only note is: Bavasi is the person who would call up Jones, right? And he's not here.

by CapSea on Jul 27, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Look who he's playing
Mostly people that he himself traded for, signed, or hyped up.  I don't think there is any other reason Sexson is still a starter - why would a manager care that he has a bloated contract?  Contracts don't win games. Only a GM would care that he vastly overplayed for a horrible player.  

But again, that is IMHO as well.  All of this is speculation.  We haven't really heard from anyone in the Mariner's front office why they sit on their hands and do nothing, other than "chemistry."  

My only note is: Bavasi is the person who would call up Jones, right? And he's not here.

by CapSea on Jul 27, 2007 4:24 PM PDT reply actions  

I've always advocated
that the Manager had a much less free reign with players, especially when people were scoffing at Hargrove about things last year in regards to playing time for the kids that were called up... that it wasn't strictly his choice to sit guys and give them occasional playing time, and that Petagine's rotting on the bench last year when Sexson was struggling was also an indicator from Bavasi on who should be playing and when....

That idea has been scoffed at quite frequently.... you are the first one I've seen in a while that shares the belief that the manager doesn't necessarily have free reign to play who he wants and who he doesn't, and how often those players play.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 27, 2007 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

More will follow
I don't expect that Bavasi is saying "Hey, Mclaren, start Suckson or you're fired." But I do think that he probably receives Memos after 0 for 5 games with 4 K's and a DP that say "So, Sexson had an off day today.  But won't it be great when his bat picks up by the end of the year?" and McLaren looks at the memo, sighs, and knows that he is supposed to play Sexson again.  

There are either two things that McLaren or Hargrove could have been: A) Figureheads, B) Managers.

Figureheads do what they're told.  Managers... well... manage.  I think we can all agree there was very little of the latter.  

by CapSea on Jul 27, 2007 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Out of all the people the Mariners
are scouting, I think Jason Jennings would be the best choice. He strikes out about 6.63 batters per 9 innings, he's almost even on GB% and FB% and Safeco would help keep his homeruns down. He's definitely a better choice than anybody else.
I am not Coach Owens!

by Coach Owens on Jul 27, 2007 4:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Agree
but the health and price are always a concern.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 27, 2007 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

He didnt exactly put his best foot forward
.2 IP, 11 ER today.  Ouch
Every time Ibanez is in the lineup, God kills a mariners fan

by Brian Floyd on Jul 29, 2007 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's a rumor floating around
that the M's were close to a deal today.... but the team pulled out after ownership got involved.... this was supposedly reported on Baseball prospectus... I don't know the validity of it, no names were mentioned, and not sure if it was the M's that pulled out or the other team.  If any of you are Prospectus members maybe you can find out more.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 27, 2007 6:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Huh.
Haven't heard anything about that.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 27, 2007 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

this one from a Seattle paper
love those pitchers that can't make it in Pinstripes.....

Kenji Johjima and Ichiro both expressed pleasant surprise in the clubhouse after overhearing a TV report about the Mariners' rumored trade interest in Yankees pitcher Kei Igawa, who is also Japanese.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 28, 2007 1:59 AM PDT reply actions  

Just because he's japense? Ugh.
How about getting a player who doesn't SUCK.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jul 28, 2007 2:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Naze?
Igawa-san ga kirai?
I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF @ Lookout Landing on Jul 29, 2007 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe Kenji
could bring him back to form? Possibility that Kei just wasn't comfortable with Posada?

Grasping at threads?

by Limerickx on Jul 28, 2007 10:22 AM PDT reply actions  

Rosenthal says the Twins might take offers for...
Santana.

...

Offer everything but including kitchen sink....NOW!!!

*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 28, 2007 1:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Rosenthal says world peace is coming
and that cancer is cured.

...

You can tell how I feel about Rosenthal's reporting.

by Gomez on Jul 28, 2007 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Man that's awsome!!!
Cancer is lame.  :D  

I know it's probably BS, but it's fun to speculate a bit.

*Call up Wladam Jonentien & free Mark Lowe!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 28, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's even news.
A GM should always be listening to offers for anyone.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 28, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dmitri Young just got a two-year extension.
I guess he's off the table. Whew!
Felix, you magnificent bastard.

by Double06 on Jul 28, 2007 6:08 PM PDT reply actions  

How come
the only time Bowden isn't clinically retarded is when he is dealing with Bavasi?

by Robert on Jul 28, 2007 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually...
Most of the moves he makes benefits his team because he's so conservative. This is the first move he's made in a long time that I really disagree with.
Felix, you magnificent bastard.

by Double06 on Jul 28, 2007 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

MLBTradeRumors.com
if Octavio Dotel is worthy of a discussion about Dodgers' shortstop Chin-Ling Hu, does Wheeler fall within the same realm?  If not, does controlling him through 2008 close the gap?  With Reid Brignac struggling in Double A overall, why not attempt to add another shortstop?  Or if Brignac succeeds (his bat has come alive this month), the Rays could move Hu to second base.  Evan Longoria at third base would make Akinori Iwamura expendable.

Another option would be to target Seattle's Jeff Clement, though I'd imagine Bill Bavasi would want more than just Wheeler.  Carlos Pena would be a nice fit.

--I would love to have Pena over just about any other hitter on the market - Clement for Wheeler and Pena?  Yes please.

by seattlesundevil on Jul 29, 2007 11:47 PM PDT reply actions  

If they were willing to offer Peña for Clement
then SHIP HIM.

But I doubt that Peña's on the table.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2007 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Jesus
MLBTradeRumors.com

I stopped reading right there.  And you should have too.

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF @ Lookout Landing on Jul 30, 2007 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Texiera deal pending medical review
trade to the Braves: Texiera and Mahay
Trade to the Rangers: Saltalamacchia, Clas A SS Elvis Andrus, and Two pitching prospects (unnamed).

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 30, 2007 8:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Neftali Feliz
is one of the pitching prospects going to Atlanta according to MLBTradeRumors.com (per ESPN.com)

by seattlesundevil on Jul 30, 2007 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Apparently the M's are out of the Dotel sweeps...
According to Fox Sports it's a three team race with Atlanta leading and Cleavland & LAD right behind.

If it's true that's great news.

*Call up Wladam Jonentien!!!*

by SethGrandpa on Jul 30, 2007 11:49 AM PDT reply actions  

Looks like things are picking up
Rosenthal reports the Mets are about to acquire Luis Castillo for a couple of prospects..... the best line in the article......

 The Mets had been using Ruben Gotay and Damion Easley at second, but Castillo is a proven everyday player who helped the Marlins win the 2003 World Series.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 30, 2007 12:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Indeed
If your manager pencils your ass into the lineup everyday, you are a proven everyday player!  Ask Cal Ripken Jr about that.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a horrible deal
for the Phils. They do need starters...

by tait644 on Jul 30, 2007 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL good old Pat Gillick
In two years the Phillies are going to have no pitching prospects left in their system.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rosenthal is reporting
that Glaus may be the next slugger to go on the trade market - he has a full no trade clause but said he could waive it for a trade to a west coast team.  Glaus at DH with the (somewhat) ability to play SS every now and then?  Not likely to happen or even have us mentioned in the talks - just throwin it out there

by seattlesundevil on Jul 30, 2007 2:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Glaus at SS! HAHA
He'd pitch before he played SS
I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Jul 30, 2007 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

ironically because Gibbons
knew that his bat was more valuable than his shoddy defense when they had FB-prone pitchers on the hill.

by Matthew on Jul 30, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

If only he was a LHB
I would be for it.  Glaus' hitting more than makes up for his defense.  He could be the worst SS in the game and be -20 runs because he is going to create about 100 runs.  Yuni only makes about 70 runs per year and probably won't ever be more than 10+ runs per year defensively.  I wouldn't do the trade but if he was a LHB I'd be tempted at least.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 30, 2007 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

He doesn't have much range anymore
Bloomquist is a MUCH better option defensively..i just wouldn't ever figure to see him there on the M's...but why are we really even discussing him...?
I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Jul 30, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ix-nay on Otel-Day
Per Rotoworld, looks like he's going to Atlanta for Kyle Davies.

Damn.  I would've taken Davies...

RAUL HURTS THIS TEAM BY NOT PLAYING DRUMS FOR SPINAL TAP Oh, and Free Kam Mickolio!

by PositivePaul on Jul 30, 2007 2:52 PM PDT reply actions  

I hope Davies has fun
giving up 6 runs in 4 innings every 5 days.

Meanwhile, this probably pushes Soriano farther back in the Braves bullpen.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2007 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually...
They probably needed bullpen help badly as bad as Raffey's sucked over his last 10 outings.  He's blown the game in 4 of those outings, and his ERA has gone up a full half point (not that ERA is an effective measure of RPs, but still...)
RAUL HURTS THIS TEAM BY NOT PLAYING DRUMS FOR SPINAL TAP Oh, and Free Kam Mickolio!

by PositivePaul on Jul 30, 2007 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Arroyo
Why can't we go after him?  He has declined this year, but is an upgrade to the rotation and although his contract isn't great, compared to where the market has gone, it isn't horrible either.
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jul 30, 2007 3:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Maybe
we could deal Jeremy Reed for him..  

/sarcasm

by seattlesundevil on Jul 30, 2007 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I asked the question
seeking feedback I do not have, and do not have the time to look up.  I didn't ask the question to get a condenscending answer.  Your kids must love your helpful attitude.
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jul 30, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was referring to
two offseasons ago when we backed out of trading Reed for Arroyo...  guess that's condescending to some?

by seattlesundevil on Jul 30, 2007 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hindsight is a wonderful thing
but it would have been about even then and now.
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jul 30, 2007 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rumor Central update
Mark Loretta a "fallback" option for us..   not really sure what that "fallback" is except a bench player which would make Big Ben "fallback" further down the late-inning pinch hitter chart.  ::sigh::

by seattlesundevil on Jul 30, 2007 4:03 PM PDT reply actions  

You mean usually
Middle Infielder Mark Loretta?  How, exactly, would he bump Broussard anywhere?

Sounds more like he's a backup option for Betancourt / Lopez.

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF @ Lookout Landing on Jul 30, 2007 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

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