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The Royal Curve & Felix's Arm Slot

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A few days ago the following passage showed up on Buster Olney's ESPN Insider blog:

Mariners pitching coach Rafael Chaves recalled in a phone conversation Saturday how he sat down and spoke with Hernandez on a team flight about how the young right-hander needed to be able to throw a breaking ball. They decided to change the grip of his curveball. "Once we did that," Chaves recalled, "he has felt better and better."

I won't quote the whole thing (it's only available to subscribers, after all), but the gist is this - out of concern for the health of his right arm, Felix and Chaves set about developing a new grip that would lessen the strain that the curveball puts on his elbow.

I'm always skeptical of these stories when I first read them, so I decided to find out for myself. Turns out it's entirely true. After his injury, Felix's old curveball grip was causing some discomfort. That's bad, so he and Chaves decided to change things up. Just as Olney mentions, they abandoned the old knuckle-curve grip in favor of a more conventional sort. It took some getting used to, but Felix says that he's finally gotten comfortable with it, and that it's far less taxing on his elbow than the original variety.

While changing the grip should help preserve Felix's elbow, in theory it changes the nature of the pitch as well. The new curve is a few miles slower and a little less sharp with its break. Those sound like bad things, but when I asked Dave if he noticed anything different in Felix's last start, he said he didn't see much of a change at all. The curve looked pretty much every bit as devastating as ever - just ask Jack Cust or Eric Chavez. If that's true, and the new pitch looks almost identical to the old one, then there's no downside to this. The same kind of terrifying movement with less stress on the arm? Yes, please.

This dovetails into something else I want to talk about (again). There was one difference with Felix's new curve - he was throwing it with a slightly lower arm slot:

It's a little less of an overhand angle now, which should give it more lateral movement at the expense of some drop. But more importantly, look at the pictures in the upper half. Not only has he now dropped his curveball arm angle; he's continued to drop his fastball/slider angle as well, to the point where it's almost more sidearm than 3/4. This is a clear and continued departure from his early-season overhand motion.

A few weeks ago, when I first noticed this change, I wondered why it was happening. Now I have my answer. Felix thinks that his overhand delivery may have played a prominent role in getting him hurt. By lowering his arm angle, he feels like he's reducing the torque on his elbow. He also thinks the lower slot gives him better command of his fastball, and while I didn't believe that at first, I can believe it now; a new arm slot takes some getting used to, and Felix appears to be getting his two-seamer back after a lengthy hiatus. That's good. Besides, even if the numbers don't bear out that he has better command with the lower slot (they might; I don't know), he thinks he does, and that kind of psychological confidence means a lot to a pitcher. When you're going to work on the mound, feel is everything.

I should mention that I was greatly relieved to find out that this was a conscious decision made on Felix's part. When a pitcher's arm drops and he isn't aware of it, that's often a sign of fatigue or injury, and that's the last thing we need to have happen again. Turns out Felix did this on purpose.

So from the looks of things, these changes are permanent. In an effort to avoid further injury, Felix has lowered his fastball/slider arm slot and changed the grip on his curveball (along with a lower arm slot as well, albeit to a lesser degree). The result is that he's probably going to get a little less of that crazy sharp vertical movement on his breaking pitches and two-seamer, but his stuff and command have nevertheless looked so good lately as he's gotten more and more accustomed to the delivery that I don't think it's much of a concern at all. Felix's repertoire on Opening Day was so spectacular that even if a fraction of its awesomeness has to go away forever - which isn't even guaranteed - it's okay, because he can afford to slide from an A+ to an A in the name of comfort and improved durability. It's not going to change his outlook as the brightest young pitcher in baseball. If anything, it might even make him better, should the avoiding-injury deal be as real as Felix makes it sound.

For as long as I've been keeping an eye on pitching mechanics, I've always been hesitant to suggest changes for talented young arms, because making said changes might take away the very ability that makes a pitcher so special. It's been the same with Felix - while I've suspected that his delivery was problematic, I never really wanted to see anyone tinker with it in fear that doing so might somehow might make Felix mortal. Kudos to Felix and Raffy Chaves, then, for navigating this treacherous pathway with savvy and grace, working to make his delivery safer while taking little of anything away from his skillset. It's a job well done, and the second greatest accomplishment for Felix so far this season.

Felix, it's just about time to get back on that throne. We've been waiting for you.

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Great Stuff
Thanks Jeff, that's a good read.

You hit it on the head re: confidence vs. stuff.  Any sacrifice of stuff (which should be minimal) will easily be made up for by his newfound confidence in his arm.

Dropping from an A+ to a mere A is well worth it if it means a healthier and more confident Felix.  Now let's hope these changes stick.

by tait644 on Jul 11, 2007 7:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I happened to watch BBTN...
a few days ago, I know, I know.  However, they did a good bit on the M's.  Hershiser was on that day.  He actually talked in full detail on the new pitch, or new grip, on the curve ball.  He showed it early in the year, first few starts, where the break was sharp.  Now it seems a little less break as you stated and he stated.

The main thing he pointed out was that people were putting it in play, instead of swinging and missing.  The old curve ball was pretty much impossible to hit.  He said that he was still getting outs, just not as many K's.

Good notes by you, Jeff.  Appreciate the full insite.

Also, still can't believe the article on the M's website, http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070709&content_id=2077673&vkey=news_m lb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb , that Felix is one of the needs improvement.  Guess that is the Angels writer with the article.

by ppl4life on Jul 11, 2007 8:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I read that article
And it has Jose Vidro listed as a gold star because he's done a terrific job adapting to the new role of DH.

...........................

.... Oh dear.

by ThundaPC on Jul 11, 2007 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now thats one professional writer
He lists Vidro as one of the Gold stars for this season and Beltre along with Felix in the needs improvement section.

by Robert on Jul 11, 2007 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...
what are the stuff we should be looking out for now if Felix has problems.

Could the change in arm slot lead to hitters being able to "tell" which pitch is coming?

Will this affect his LHB/RHB splits because he is more sidearm now?

Will he increase/decrease velocity on is FB?

Will his GB% decrease because he'll have less vertical movement on his pitches?

How much "safer" does this actually make his delivery?

Anything else I miss?  It just is a little scary to hear Felix trying to remake himself as a pitcher.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 11, 2007 8:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Let's see:
-possibly, but I doubt it. He's always had a slightly different delivery for his curve, and the other arm slot begets everything else he throws (two-seamer, four-seamer, slider, changeup). It might make the curve a little easier to spot, but the lowered angle makes that one look similar to the others. It's pretty subtle at full speed.

-I'd say it'll probably give him a more pronounced split, but he already has a big one, and I'm skeptical that it could get much wider. If he's able to get the feel for his changeup back to where it used to be - something he's had trouble with this year - he should be able to keep lefties from having too much fun.

-shouldn't make much difference. In my personal experience I felt like I threw a little harder coming overhand, but that's entirely subjective. I can't think of any physiological reason for this to make Felix throw slower. He's down a few ticks from where he was Opening Day, but that could be due to any of several reasons.

-it could, but he put up a 2.00 GB/FB against Oakland on Saturday, so I'm not too concerned. If there's a difference, it'll be small.

-only time will tell. But if Felix thinks it's safer, and that the old delivery was hurting him, there's really no choice.

I know it's a little scary, but this isn't an overhaul. They're pretty subtle changes with which he appears to be getting really comfortable. I think the upside's bigger than the downside.

by Jeff on Jul 11, 2007 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't say
the upside's bigger than the downside.  It seems like more of a necassary evil.

by Edgar for Pres on Jul 11, 2007 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
relative to where we would've gone had Felix not done anything to his delivery, I think the upside's bigger than the downside.

by Jeff on Jul 11, 2007 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It makes a lot more sense now...
why he was throwing so many fastballs early.  If he starts the game throwing the curve, and he's not comfortable with it, he's probably going to get nailed anyway.  
When I said "Free Chris Snelling", I didn't mean "free" as in send him to Washington for a corpse... I just meant play him.

by DKulich44 on Jul 11, 2007 8:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

While reading...
..I noticed that you tied the new grip to the new arm slot. Is this simply conjecture/presumption, or do you have facts to back up your premise that the new arm slot is in fact a conscious decision and is not due to fatigue or other factors?
David Ortiz > God

by brick Royl on Jul 11, 2007 8:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not sure where to put this Jeff
But I stumbled across these scouting grades from ESPN. It's not quite a full sample size but it actually follows along pretty closely with what the majority of us think about our players' contributions so far this year.

Best pitchers are JJ, Felix, GS52 and EOF...shocker. Interesting if nothing else.

http://inside-edge.com/teams/mariners/index.htm

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Jul 11, 2007 10:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Should read:
grades on ESPN, not from. They're from Inside Edge.
"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Jul 11, 2007 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...
is the Kenji Johjima power pitch usually a changeup or hanging breaking ball?
No, sir, they're saying Boo-vasi.

by Mariner John on Jul 11, 2007 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great news.
But I have to point out that every time you or dave invite felix to get back the throne, it sounds like you're trying to potty train him.

by Mere Tantalisers on Jul 12, 2007 6:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

His arm angle
seems a lot like Roy Halladays now. And if that improves his 2 seemer than I'm all for it.
Shop smart......Shop s-mart...... YOU GOT THAT!!!!

by Scruffy Lefty on Jul 12, 2007 7:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

interesting
We all knew he wasn't going to maintain "you'll never see stuff like this again" stuff for that long anyway.  I find it interesting, I used to be as over-the-top as possible, for the very reason of getting horizontal movement on my fastball, but over time shifted to 3/4 then to more 5/8 to get more tail on my cutter instead.  I think it's a decent trade off.  I doubt it'll signifigantly change him, he might lose a few GB, but could gain some strikeouts in the process, especially if he gets more side movement on his 2-seamer.

by chrisisasavage on Jul 12, 2007 12:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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