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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Most underrated players in baseball?

We've talked about how players like Michael Young are overrated. But what about the players who are underrated? In my opinion one is Placido Polanco.                                                      

                                                         

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Placido Polanco?
the career 302/345/410 hitter with average defense?

Adam Everett is underrated.

by Matthew on May 7, 2007 6:00 PM PDT reply actions  

He's a horrid hitter
His defense must be really good, then.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 7, 2007 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

best in the league
he's probably a 3-4 win player with his D.

by Matthew on May 7, 2007 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah really
I still think it'd be a fun exercise to make videos of shortstops side by side with Everett on the same play.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 1:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

really?
I wasn't seeing it on PMR.

by Matthew on May 7, 2007 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

well
that wouldn't dispute my point of him being average now.

by Matthew on May 7, 2007 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay.
Polanco now is ehhhh.

Polanco, for his career, is underrated.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 7, 2007 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Looks to me like he's lost a step
I remember him being great a couple years ago though.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Felix Hernandez
The poster formerly known as KnightofKingK

by Robert on May 7, 2007 6:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Gil Meche
Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on May 7, 2007 6:05 PM PDT reply actions  

We don't welcome your type here
The poster formerly known as KnightofKingK

by Robert on May 7, 2007 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

You'll love this
Some guy actually sent me email just now saying that he really wants to sponsor Gil Meche's page on baseball-reference, and can I possibly transfer it to him somehow?
Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on May 7, 2007 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

SELL SELL SELL
This is akin to somebody asking to buy all your stocks on October 28 1929
The poster formerly known as KnightofKingK

by Robert on May 7, 2007 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me

by KenjiJohjimasBack on May 7, 2007 6:07 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree
but I don't think that will last very long
Shop smart......Shop s-mart...... YOU GOT THAT!!!!

by Scruffy Lefty on May 7, 2007 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

huh, gift run
that's about 1/20th of the way to paying back for Mike Reilly.

by Matthew on May 7, 2007 6:24 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm ignorant, but
I don't know what Mike Reilly did. The only play I can think of off the top of my head that totally F'ed us was that game ending "interference" call against Tampa Bay a year or two or three ago. Was that Reilly?

by Hoft on May 7, 2007 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know about
the interference call. But what Reilly did what everyone's mad about is that game last summer vs. the Yankees in New York when in the bottom of the 9th or 10th or whatever it started raining. Reilly was the crew chief that night and as the rain started pouring down everyone including Reilly himself most likely, didn't delay the game at all. So instead Putz had to pitch in the terrible weather and sure enough gave up a homerun to lose it.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 7, 2007 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everyone
including Reilly himself, most likely, knew he should have delayed the game, that is.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 7, 2007 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought he was
the first base ump who blew that call in the 8th or whatever that allowed the yankees to come back before the delay? I saw that game at a sportsbar so I dunno, i could be wrong.

by DCMariner on May 7, 2007 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Could have been
both.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 7, 2007 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Blew a call at first base.
Called Jorge Posada safe on an infield grounder, putting men on the corners with one out in a 4-3 game (bottom 9). Johnny Damon followed with a sac fly to tie it, when it should've been the third out.

Plus the whole rain thing. It was most unpleasant.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 7, 2007 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Derek Jeter
Just kidding.

Moises Alou.

by Gomez on May 7, 2007 6:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Thank you
Someone watches actual baseball around here.

I don't care for your UZRs and PMRs and OPSs.  Give me a veteran who doesn't strike out and raps some tough GBs around the park.

Like Tiger Woods, Jose Vidro's rollers always find the hole.   That's something you will never see in a million spreadsheets.  You will also never see how much this gets into the head of the pitcher.  
A lined double?  The pitcher goes, hey, I made a bad pitch.  But when you give up two GB singles, or IF singles, to a guy with no legs?  Then you start wondering if the hitter is a shaman or wizard.  If that hitter is Jose Vidro, he is (a shaman).   The AL is starting to learn this, and I have it on good authority that Vidro caused the 'snow game' to be cancelled in Cle.

by Vidro4MVP on May 8, 2007 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Whoops
forgot this was satirical.

by Mariner John on May 8, 2007 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

a quick list
Dan Haren
John Lackey
Adrian Gonzalez
Orlando Hudson..O DOG!!

there are a few more, i'll think of some later.

by MFAN on May 7, 2007 6:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Hmm
Roger Clemens.

Seriously though, how about Capuano?

by Slica on May 7, 2007 7:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Kenji Johjima
and anyone whose value is derived entirely from defense, like Adam Everett.

by chrisisasavage on May 7, 2007 7:57 PM PDT reply actions  

The Haitian
He can negate powers.

by JLC on May 7, 2007 8:22 PM PDT reply actions  

They don't use him right
He's the relief ace of the "X-Men ripoff" world.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 7, 2007 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Micah
I heard he can fix Ken Griffey Jr.
When I said "Free Chris Snelling", I didn't mean "free" as in send him to Washington for a corpse... I just meant play him.

by DKulich44 on May 8, 2007 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Barry Bonds
Unless you are saying that he's the best hitter ever then he's underrated.

by Edgar for Pres on May 7, 2007 8:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Statistically
Babe Ruth is the best hitter ever. Ted Williams  would have had a shot at passing him if he hadn't fought in WW2 and Korea.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 7, 2007 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you have to give Bonds the nod
still cause he played in a tougher league and also has a shitload of SB and had some pretty great defensive years too.

by Edgar for Pres on May 7, 2007 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Steeeeeeeeeeeroids!
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 7, 2007 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a tougher league
On Baseball-Reference.com, Ruth and Williams are 1-2 in Adjusted OPS+.

Bonds' defense and base stealing have nothing to do with who the greatest hitter is any more than Ruth's pitching does.

Plus, Ruth and Williams never took steroids.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 7, 2007 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ruth or Williams
also never faced the caliber of pitching Bonds has faced.  OPS+ only adjusts for seasonal averages.  It does nothing to explain the differences between years.  Ruth was the best player of his time.  I do not disagree with that.  Do you think Ruth could have put up those numbers with the quality of talent around now?  I don't.

I guess I don't blame Bonds for roids as much as everybody else because I really think everyone was doing it (and if it helps a batter, I don't see why it wouldn't help a pitcher either).

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

How much better is competition?
Expansion has drastically diluted pitching around the league. I see no reason why a guy like Ted Williams couldn't put up comparable numbers today.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Expansion
means there's more players, but Babe Ruth never once had to face a black or latino pitcher.  Think about it: the Bob Gibsons, Pedro Martinez's, Johan Santanas, Felix Hernandez's, and Carlos Zambranos simply didn't exist in Babe Ruth's baseball universe.

That's a very big deal.

Babe Ruth is the best player in the history of all-white baseball.

Improved conditioning, more advanced knowledge of the game (i.e., the existence of the splitter, etc), and the like mean that Bonds' stats in today's game are far more impressive than what Ruth put up, even if OPS+ puts Ruth ahead.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on May 8, 2007 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here's the formula
# My method Compute the runs created for the league with pitchers removed (basic form) RC = (H + BB + HBP)(TB)/(AB + BB + HBP + SF)
# Adjust this by the park factor RC' = RC*BPF
# Assume that if hits increase in a park, that BB, HBP, TB increase at the some proportion.
# Assume that Outs = AB - H (more or less) do not change at all as outs are finite.
# Compute the number of H, BB, HBP, TB needed to produce RC', involves the quadratic formula. The idea for this came from the Willie Davis player comment in the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract. I think some others, including Clay Davenport have done some similar things.
# Using these adjusted values compute what the league average player would have hit lgOBP
, lgSLG* in a park.
# Take OPS+ = 100 * (OBP/lgOBP* + SLG/lgSLG* - 1)

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ok
So OPS+ is only comparing players within leagues (I wonder if they mean the majors or just NL/AL?) and within seasons by the sound of things - it doesn't apply cross-era.

The way they get league average numbers are clever though.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

It appears they split between NL and AL
which makes sense because these numbers are from before the accursed blight that is interleague play.

The big problem with all this is that, like you said, it doesn't apply cross-era because that wouldn't make sense. It's simply impossible to compare eras without engaging in unverifiable speculation. I like OPS+ because a players greatness should be viewed in context; Carl Yastrzemski's line of .301 average, 23 HRs, and .921 OPS would make him a decent power hitter today, but in 1968 he was the league's dominant hitter with those numbers. You can make a few arguments to make Babe Ruth seem less impressive (end of the Dead Ball Era, no non-white competition, etc.), but Ted Williams put up pretty much the same OPS numbers as Bonds while playing in an era in which the rest of the league didn't hit as well as they do today. Unless you subscribe to the notion that hitting a baseball is harder today than it was back then, which I don't, this tells us that Williams was a better hitter. Throw in the steroid issue and the fact that Williams lost some of his peak years to World War 2 and Korea, and I think the case for Williams being the greatest hitter ever is pretty solid.

This post got way too long. Good night.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I do subscribe to baseball being harder today
It's just a matter of the sample you draw from. With more people playing baseball, assuming some sort of normal distribution in the entire populace's baseball skills and a fixed amount of roster spots, major league teams are simply going to have higher quality players.

Think of it like this: If I take 100 random numbers out of 100 and that the top 10, the average of those is going to be around 95. If I take 1000 random numbers out of 100, then take the top 10, the average is going to be almost 100. This is much more simplistic, of course, but a similar idea should apply to baseball talent.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

In fact, it will by definition
Be easier for an outlier like Ruth to put up crazy OPS numbers because the average talent would be much lower.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm aware of this principle
but it is mitigated by the fact that expansion has almost doubled the total number of players in the league, combined with the increased popularity of basketball and football which divert talented athletes from becoming baseball players.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 3:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Whilst I agree that there would be
some cancelling out due to the points you mentioned, I'm unconvinced that the effect is wholely cancelled out.

The way to test this would be to compare standard deviations in OPS+. A wider band indicates a broader spread of talent and therefore a lower average, wheras if it was tighter it'd mean that the average has shifted higher.

If anyone wants to look into this, that'd be cool. I'm a bit busy at the moment.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 3:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't think I'm diligent enough
But like I said, factoring in the higher OPS+, the higher OPS, and the peak years spent as a fighter pilot, I'm sticking with Williams as the best hitter ever. Ruth and Bonds have decent cases, though.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 3:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fair enough
I wasn't arguing about your choice of best hitter ever, just about the specific use of OPS+.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

One thing that should be done
by BR is calculate the standard deviation of OPS+ each year and then do a normalization with that so that a 120 corresponds with being x standard deviations away from the mean.  A 120 this year and a 120 next year don't necessarily mean the same thing.  If the standard deviation this year is much higher then a 120 this year is not going to be as good as it was the year before.  It really doesn't probably effect stuff too much but if you are going to go through all the effort of normalizing for all these park factors and league factors you might as well normalize for variability too so that individual years can be compared a little bit better to each other.

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still disagree
Baseball has expanded the number of teams and decreased in popularity but it has also drastically increased the population that it draws talent from.  When Babe Ruth played no black players were allowed to play.  There were also no dominicans, cubans, or japanese players.  Sure comparing the 1930s to now, a lower percentage of white people might enter baseball but that is totally made up for by everybody else.

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also
Population
  1. 123,202,624
  2. 281,421,906
So the size of baseball has doubled but so has the population (actually its more than doubled).

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah i was looking at that
but didn't see any of the numbers I really needed to use it.  Maybe I can just say that the league back then was about 10% easier.

Runs Created
Barry Bonds: 2621
Babe Ruth: 2757
90% of Babe Ruth: 2481.3

I don't really know if this is right but it kinda goes along with my feelings.

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is one of the reasons
I consider Williams better than Ruth.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

oops
to answer your question, it looks like he does it season by season.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 1:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

2nded
also second Lackey and Haren.
Ichiro wouldn't be a bad vote either, 41 straight sb's, amazing grace and speed in centerfield?
http://seattlesportsmaniac.blogspot.com

by LantermanC on May 8, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lyle Overbay
Just as a sidenote, I played against his brother.

Also:
Kelly Johnson?
Manny Ramírez (especially by Red Sox fans)

by Edgar for Pres on May 7, 2007 8:49 PM PDT reply actions  

Another vote for the O-Dawg.
Doug Davis is another one.
Protect the enviroment, or I'll FUCKING KILL YOU! CAPTAAAAAIIIINNNN PLANNNNET! ~Ted Turner

by Goose on May 7, 2007 8:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Seriously talking
Mike Jacobs
Josh Willingham
Hanley Ramirez

Yeah, there's a trend here.

by JLC on May 7, 2007 9:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Not anymore, really
But his numbers are even more staggering right now. He could finish with better numbers than Reyes.

by JLC on May 7, 2007 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

My votes
I agree with a lot that have been listed. Here is who I thought of that haven't been mentioned yet...
James Shields
Josh Willingham
Ray Durham
Russell Martin
Ian Snell
Fernando Cabrera
Carlos Guillen
And...maybe not this year, but historically, Mike Cameron!
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by ConorGlassey on May 7, 2007 9:29 PM PDT reply actions  

My list
Ryan Church
Prince Fielder (I don't hear a lot about him, maybe he's not underrated)
Brad Hawpe (Ok, not this year yet)
Garrett Atkins
Matt Holliday
Jeff Francis

Basically any Rockie who's done well, except for Helton now.

by Mariner John on May 7, 2007 10:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Hawpe, Holliday, Atkins
Nobody trusts their big numbers because of Coors. A certain third baseman whom we traded Brian Fuentes for comes to mind.

by Rollo Tomasi on May 8, 2007 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Coors...
Is apparently a lot harder to hit in than it once was because of that humidor they use.  The numbers say the same.  Those three are good hitters, but Jeff Cirillo (pretty sure he's my only MLB Fraternity Brother, kind of sad) did not have the power he showed there.
When I said "Free Chris Snelling", I didn't mean "free" as in send him to Washington for a corpse... I just meant play him.

by DKulich44 on May 8, 2007 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't trust PFs until they show
It's a consistant effect. Coors may be playing closer to neutral these days, but saying the numbers indicate that is a little premature.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's a pretty big difference for all of them
From 04-06
Atkins is +160 OPS points at home vs. road but still has a .803 on the road.
Holliday is like +309.
Hawpe is -86.

It doesn't mean they are bad otherwise but they aren't as good as their stats would show.

by Mariner John on May 8, 2007 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Mark McLemore
So what he's not in the league anymore. This team misses him and Stan Javier.

by TyranT on May 7, 2007 11:29 PM PDT reply actions  

Adam Dunn
He gets a lot of shit for striking out and his low BA, but look at OBP and OPS and explain to me why Alex Gonzalez is hitting in front of him.

(FYI, Hi, I'm new.)

by Teej on May 8, 2007 12:34 AM PDT reply actions  

I wil add one more...
King Felix. Until he is recognized as the best player in baseball... :).

by Slica on May 8, 2007 12:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Underrated by whom?
The non-stathead press? The stathead press? The fans in general?

Guy IMO are underrated: Craig Biggio today, Jeff Suppan.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh @ Lookout Landing on May 8, 2007 6:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Alex Rios
When I said "Free Chris Snelling", I didn't mean "free" as in send him to Washington for a corpse... I just meant play him.

by DKulich44 on May 8, 2007 9:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Dude.
George Sherrill!

Death to lefty bats!

Hello, Richie? Stop sucking. kthxbye!

by PositivePaul on May 8, 2007 9:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Context
Part of the problem of defining underrated is defining underrated to whom.  A player may be underrated to a fan who gets 100% of their info from ESPN, but be correctly rated by saber-crowd and overrated by their team and by the fans who only get their news from the teams sources.  I see a lot of names on this list, who I thought of when I first read this (Bedard, Doug Davis, Bonderman, Snell, etc), but got thinking, "are they really over rated", and decided no, since most of my baseball reading is saber-friendly, and they are not underrated in those circles.  I don't think what the typical fan or the ESPN dork thinks is really that important in MY scheme of things.

by chrisisasavage on May 8, 2007 9:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Correction
meant, "are they really UNDER rated".  Whoops

by chrisisasavage on May 8, 2007 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also
I think a lot of the underrated players are going to fall into a few categories and the saber crowd is going to recognize most of them.

Those categories are:

Position Players whose hitting value is deflated by playing in a pitchers park.
Great defensive guys who are average or worse hitters.
Pitchers who play in a hitters park.
Pitchers who have good peripherals but have had bad luck or crappy defense behind them.
Pitchers who have not-so-good peripherals but still get people out consistently.

The saber crowd will recoginize most of these guys, except the last bit, but even then, once the sample is big enough that regression says they really are that good, they will recognize them as well.

by chrisisasavage on May 8, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think
iron horses who are average or maybe slightly above average players might be another category, as well as players who are good but have been too injured to show it.

by chrisisasavage on May 8, 2007 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think you could maybe make up a stat
First what leads to a player being overrated:
-A few early great seasons (Zito?)
-High BA (Pierre)
-High RBI (Sexson)
-High SB (Crawford?)
-Ok hitter at a premium defensive position (1B, DH, corner OF) (Garret Anderson)
-High Wins
-Low ERA (Washburn)
-Saves
-Market played in (NY, ect)

Underrated/overratedness will change with time as people change their attitude so it is a difficult task.

You could probably make a simple stat like (Outs/Runs Created)*(Games Played) where higher would be more overrated.  

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Crawford overrated?
visiting A's fan.

by rfloh @ Lookout Landing on May 8, 2007 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know
sometimes i feel he is.  He's good and might be great.  I could easily be very wrong on that one.

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

LEROY JEEEEEENKINS
other than him,

Chris Capuano

What would Spiez do?

by Kirby on May 8, 2007 11:01 AM PDT reply actions  

I think Lackey
is the most underrated pitcher around right now.

by Edgar for Pres on May 8, 2007 11:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Except here
We all know Lackey is a beast

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

...and has been for a few years
Lackey and Haren.  I think it's because they're both funny-looking and in the AL West.

Also, damn, did you know Lackey apparently has a blog?  I didn't.  Wowie.

Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on May 8, 2007 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bronson Arroyo
since leaving Boston he's put up some pretty decent overall numbers... considering the home park he pitches in he has to be considered quite underrated.

by MfaninAlaska on May 8, 2007 11:55 AM PDT reply actions  

I really don't trust Bronson Arroyo.
There's nothing in his numbers that screams out 'sustainable' to me - FIP has him at 4.2, my numbers have him at something similar.

In fact, it looks to me like his LOB% in 2006 are the cause of the discrepancy. He goes from mid 60s up to almost 80% last year, which I don't think is sustainable.

Having said that, he's pitching like a beast this His performance this year is powered by a 20% IFFB rate and a 1.7%!!! HRFB. Those aren't sustainable numbers (although they are really, really cool).

I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher by any means - he's probably half a run above league average. He's just not an ace.

by Graham MacAree on May 8, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with your general point
but are you sure about the FIP numbers?

Zito is another guy who has an outrageous HR / FB ratio this year.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh @ Lookout Landing on May 8, 2007 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rube Waddell = Most Underrated Player of All Time
Waddell was a strikeout machine who in his free time drank like a fish and wrestled alligators. Nothing could deter him from unleashing his constant barrage of blazing fastballs and knee-buckling curveballs, except, of course, when the batters brought puppies and shiny toys up to the plate.

by JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo on May 8, 2007 1:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Waddell's in the hall of fame,
therefore he doesn't count.  How about Ewell Blackwell?
Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on May 8, 2007 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kyle Lohse,
is having a pretty good season too.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 8, 2007 2:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Comw on.
Prove it.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 8, 2007 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I said this season
3.58 FIP.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 8, 2007 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Correct Answers are
Travis Hafner
Grady Sizemore
C.C. Sabathia

Pretty much the Cleveland Indians in general.

by awesomer @ Lookout Landing on May 8, 2007 6:54 PM PDT reply actions  

Sabathia
isn't underrated. People have always said he was really good. It's just he gets hurt too much.
Top 5 Greatest Players ever: 1. Josh Gibson 2. Cool Papa Bell 3. Babe Ruth 4. Matty 5. Ty Cobb

by Coach Owens on May 8, 2007 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

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