Interesting trades/signing ideas, but unlikely

by shunter160 on Dec 8, 2007 9:46 AM PST

It seems like the M's are the frontrunner for Erik Bedard. So if we trade Adam Jones, George Sherrill, and someone else. Then we sign Fukodome (i dunno if thats spelled right) and he plays right field. (But it looks more like he will go to the padres or cubs.) How does that sound? I'm semi interested in it, because I believe Fukodome would be pretty good in our lineup. But I don't wanna lose AJ because he is 21 or 22. So he can still become really good.

We could also deal Ibanez to the Cubs....for some sort of pitching. Maybe the often injured Mark Prior.

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Prior is likely not going

to be on the Cubs next season according to Rotoworld.

"Kruger! My son tells me, your company shtinks!"-Frank Costanza.

by Coach Owens on Dec 8, 2007 10:01 AM PST reply actions

If Raul is slated to play left...

I'd trade him for Prior.

by Patrick517 on Dec 8, 2007 10:08 AM PST reply actions

If we trade Jones for Bedard

why not sign Cammy?

"Kruger! My son tells me, your company shtinks!"-Frank Costanza.

by Coach Owens on Dec 8, 2007 10:17 AM PST reply actions

He is 34,

He will want multi-years, more money than he deserves, and he has a 25 game Suspension. Plus I don't think he will really want to come back to Seattle.

Does anyone know if Ichiro would want to move back to RF? He seemed to enjoy being in CF.

Funk for '08!

by shunter160 on Dec 8, 2007 11:04 AM PST up reply actions

Cammy is also

on the decline in CF.

by redwolf75 on Dec 8, 2007 12:57 PM PST up reply actions

Nick Green

Heading to the Yankees.

That ends his Mariners story.

by Slica on Dec 8, 2007 10:51 AM PST reply actions

And what a story it was!

Seattle AL 28 Sea MLB 6 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 000 --

by Paytheline on Dec 8, 2007 12:20 PM PST up reply actions

Noooooooooo

Farewell Nick Green. I knew you not very well.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 1:19 PM PST up reply actions

Lol!

Nice.

by Slica on Dec 8, 2007 3:10 PM PST up reply actions

Nick Green has been freed

by Robert on Dec 8, 2007 6:03 PM PST up reply actions

Fukudome is going to get insane $

Do. Not. Want.

by Matthew on Dec 8, 2007 11:15 AM PST reply actions

I'm still gonna keep on chirping bout Andre Ethier

How'd you like to get a 25 yr old LHB OF who is gonna put up at least 280/350/450 and should keep getting better with age. That's solid. Plus at least average defense. Oh yeah and he's cheap too. What if I told you he'd be relatively easy to get cause he doesn't have a spot to play. Jones/Ichiro/Ethier is very good.

Per rotoworld (who i have very little faith in), "The Dodgers have expressed interest in Joaquin Benoit in the past and could have a fit there, though they'd probably want more." So that to me says Sherril and somebody interesting but not good in the minors.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 12:34 PM PST reply actions

I'm doubting more and more that the Bedard trade

is a good idea. I've heard that Bedard will test free agency no matter the team he's on. Therefore, to trade AJ, Morrow et al for a 2 year rent of Bedard might come back and bite the M's in the ass.

by redwolf75 on Dec 8, 2007 12:56 PM PST reply actions

Joba Chamberlain

Didn't want to start a new topic.

Is this guy as good as the media say he is, or is it just a case of hype because he plays in Pinstripes and throws hard?

by EnglishMariner on Dec 8, 2007 1:19 PM PST reply actions

I would say maybe

but I said the same thing about Hanley Ramirez because he was in Boston's system. While im right about his defense, I was oh so wrong about the rest.

I also find Jacob Ellsbury incredibly overrated. We'll see. Everything has to go Boston's way, so im sure he will turn into Mickey Mantle.

by Slica on Dec 8, 2007 3:13 PM PST up reply actions

Ellsbury isn't anything great

He's a clone of Jeremy Reed with more speed and maybe a little less power.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions

less power?!?!?!

is that possible? Reed is a wimp.

Copenhagen = WAYYYYY better than Paris

by MarinerintheDistrict on Dec 8, 2007 3:26 PM PST up reply actions

I bet he has more power than me though :P

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 3:28 PM PST up reply actions

Minor league stats

Reed: .318/.386/.469
Jacoby: .313/.389/.425
Scary similar huh?

They are pretty comparable with how much time they spent at each level besides Reed's last year in AAA.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions

Hughes is probably better

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 3:17 PM PST up reply actions

Ian Kennedy is probably better

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions

I'd say

Hughes is more likely to be a great pitcher than Chamberlain, but Joba's potential peak is higher than just about any pitcher in the game.

by patsfan on Dec 8, 2007 3:29 PM PST up reply actions

Felix and Liriano both have better stuff

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions

Liriano is going to be scary.

I can't wait for he and Felix to battle it out for best pitcher of the 21st century.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 4:17 PM PST up reply actions

You mispelled 'injured'

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 4:26 PM PST up reply actions

I doubt that.

It's a highly successful surgery, and he will basically replaces a bad ligament with a good one. Essentially, Liriano will have a new, healthy ligament. So why would it get injured? It's new and healthy.

Read this: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/player-highlight-francisco-liriano/

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 5:07 PM PST up reply actions

Because he throws like a crazy person

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions

Meh.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 5:29 PM PST up reply actions

What do you mean "meh."

If I take a sledgehammer to my hand I'm gonna break my hand. It'll probably sucessfully heal but I bet the next time i hit it with the sledgehammer its gonna break again no matter how sucessful of a healing process I had.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 5:33 PM PST up reply actions

That's an incorrect oversimplification.

Liriano had a ligament. It was unhealthy. It has been replaced with a ligament that is healthy. Therefore, it is not unhealthy anymore.

He did not make one pitch and suddenly it was injured. He made 134324123413241325345312423 pitches through 23 years of his life when finally it was damaged to the point it needed surgery. When he was born, his UCL was fine. After 134324123413241325345312423 pitches, it was not.

But now he has a new one, just as he did when he was born. He now has 134324123413241325345312423 pitches to injure it again. When he is 46, you're right. I will give you props for your astute analysis in 2029.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:19 PM PST up reply actions

The pitches he threw at age 7

bear no relationship to the pitches he throws in his 20s.

by Matthew on Dec 8, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions

Sorry, man

But you don't know what you're talking about.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions

Sorry, you're right

All of the pitchers that come back from Tommy John surgery re-injure their UCL.

Why, just look at the horrific career of Mariano Rivera...

Wait...

TJS has been performed on 90 players in MLB. Of those, 4 players have received it more than once.

I don't see how you're anywhere close to right on this.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:29 PM PST up reply actions

I'm a biomechanicist

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:32 PM PST up reply actions

You're welcome to

But considering only 4% of pitchers have needed repeat surgery, I don't see how you can argue he'd re-injure his UCL. You want to argue that his weird throwing motion will injure his knee, or a different ligament, go right ahead. I won't argue. But there is no evidence that the surgery doesn't work the first time.

Wikipedia says you should read these:
# ^ Lyman, S., et al., Effect of pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics on risk of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers. Am J Sports Med, 2002. 30(4): p. 463-8.
# ^ Whiteley, R., Baseball throwing mechanics as they relate to pathology and performance - a review. Journal of Sports Science & Medicine, 2007. 6(1): p. 1-20.
# ^ Lyman, S., et al., Longitudinal study of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers. Med Sci Sports Exerc, 2001. 33(11): p. 1803-10.

Though I don't have access to them to validate their credibility.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:36 PM PST up reply actions

They're not engineering analyses

And are therefore not predictive of failure.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions

Well, that's an interesting argument.

But all I have to go on is history of the surgery and the success rate, and in this case the big picture looks in Liriano's favor. You want to do a case study of him, that is a different discussion.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:40 PM PST up reply actions

Injuries happen for a bunch of reasons

Tommy John was old when he got the first one (i believe). The reason it happens is very important to prevention in the future.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 6:41 PM PST up reply actions

He was 31

Then he recovered and pitched until he was 46.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:44 PM PST up reply actions

My guess (purely hypothetical)

is that guys that have Tommy John surgery later in their career have much less chance of reinjury within x number of years than younger players that have the surgery because if you are an older player that would suggest your pitching motion is less stressful on your elbow.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 6:47 PM PST up reply actions

They tend to modify their mechanics too

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:48 PM PST up reply actions

Seriously,

Comparisons to past pitchers is stupid. They don't have the same mechanics or physiology, and therefore make bad case studies.

Ever since people have seen Liriano's slider (which he hadn't been throwing for very long - only a few years) they have warned of elbow trouble. If he continues throwing said slider, there is more elbow trouble in the future despite him already having surgery on said elbow.

I'm not worried about his recovery from TJ, but surgery doesn't fix the basic problem of him bollocksing up his elbow when he throws that pitch.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:48 PM PST up reply actions

I was not comparing him to Tommy John

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:55 PM PST up reply actions

Or, I can put it another way.

I am currently working on the initial design of replacement spinal discs which accurately mimic the behavior of biological materials.

If someone has a hernia after 20 years of wear and tear doing whatever, then it's helpful and should last them a while.

If someone busts their IVD by doing 50 weirdly contorted jumps in a row, and insist they're going to do so again... then my implant will fail then too.

Liriano's much more case #2 than case #1.

His elbow problems were predicted far in advance of them actuall flaring up, and in order to minimise the chances of him being reinjured he'll have to modify his delivery and thus lose some stuff.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:56 PM PST up reply actions

Spinal discs, really?

Do you have to have a Spinal Tap??

CRANK IT TO 11, BAYBAAAAY!!!!

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 8, 2007 8:24 PM PST up reply actions

Failure is not a function

Of how other people have recovered from surgery. It's in the individual loading of the ligament. Unless he changes the way he throws it'll blow up again, and this new version of the UCL definitely isn't any stronger than the last one.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:42 PM PST up reply actions

That's fine.

Then only 4% didn't. That's not an unknown secret, and I doubt a pitching coach is going to ignore it.

Do you have inside knowledge that says that the other 90% of people that successfully came back pitched differently than Liriano does? They all managed to provide the same stress, they came back. If you know something about Liriano, specifically, that validates your claim that he shares something in common with the 4% that failed, then that's different.

You're explaining to me how people fail, and that's great, but you're not explaining to me what makes Liriano likely to fail when few others have.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:48 PM PST up reply actions

Yes, I do

Get video of him throwing the slider.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:49 PM PST up reply actions

Also

"They all managed to provide the same stress, they came back."

If you honestly think that every pitcher puts the same stresses on their joints, then there's not much point arguing. The very reason Liriano's stuff is so electric is because he's overloading his arm. He's being much harsher on it than a normal pitcher.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:51 PM PST up reply actions

Good example

"They all managed to provide the same stress, they came back."
...
Felix Hernandez vs Jarrod Washburn

We are scared shitless for Felix. I wish Washburn's elbow would blow up but I highly doubt it.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 6:58 PM PST up reply actions

If anything goes with Felix

It'll be the shoulder.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 7:00 PM PST up reply actions

I wish I could make a subject of just :( faces

by Robert on Dec 8, 2007 8:38 PM PST up reply actions

Well this I have no response to.

If this is the case, that's all you need to say. Saying that Liriano will re-injure himself because he will, when the stats on the surgery say that he won't is not an argument. Just like the "hit your hand with a sledgehammer twice" is not analogous to the surgery.

If Liriano, unlike the other 95% of pitchers that recovered, has a way of throwing that will re-injure his arm, then okay. I hope you're wrong, but I have no problem with that statement.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 7:01 PM PST up reply actions

Sorry if I wasn't being clear

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 7:05 PM PST up reply actions

Ha, Okay.

Well... we're fine now.

Tangent the subject, I hope Liriano does come back strong (changed delivery and what have you). He's exciting to watch. Plus he has a bad-ass name.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions

The problem is that changing his delivery

Might (read: probably will) take some bite and power off his pitches.

And yes, I'm a big Liriano fan too, and would love to see him fully healthy for a long time, with his full complement of stuff. I'm very skeptical of it happening, but I might be wrong, and I hope I am.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 7:14 PM PST up reply actions

Heh, me too.

I think I'll stock up on his rookie cards, just in case. If all else fails, he can be the player that could have been and never was. Like Kerry Wood.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 7:17 PM PST up reply actions

or mark prior?

by redwolf75 on Dec 8, 2007 7:30 PM PST up reply actions

Yep.

I don't know what the Cubs did, but I hope Felix never goes there.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 7:31 PM PST up reply actions

Horizontal mayhem!

by redwolf75 on Dec 8, 2007 11:13 PM PST up reply actions

Cool!

Graham and Librocrat kissed and made up.

See, I told you it'd happen...

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 8, 2007 8:28 PM PST up reply actions

Graham used tongue.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 11:57 PM PST up reply actions

And your oversimplification

He hasn't been a pitcher for his whole life and only recently has been putting extreme stress on his elbow as a pitcher due to increased velocity. He had about 600 IP logged on that elbow before it blew out. I'm not saying he's gonna blow it out again but I'm saying that you shouldn't expect him to be better forever.

Also, the new ligament isn't good as new. Its good but its not perfect. I hope he does well but I'm going to be cautious for all of next season.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions

It's not so much extreme stress

As stress in weird planes that the elbow isn't built for.

Fatigue failure happens much quicher when the stresses are out of plane from the fibril reinforcement, and ligaments are fairly isotropic in that regard (certainly more so than say a spinal disc).

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:37 PM PST up reply actions

I was kinda guessing he only recently

began throwing that high velocity pitches and slider that I'm guessing messes with the stresses on the elbow. I don't really know though.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 6:40 PM PST up reply actions

I think it's the slider

by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2007 6:41 PM PST up reply actions

As am I.

I did not say anything about next season.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 8, 2007 6:37 PM PST up reply actions

If you haven't already

I'd suggest heading over to Churchill's site. Interesting read up.

by Matthew on Dec 8, 2007 6:52 PM PST reply actions

I truthfully don't know what to think

I read it and thought it was good but I'm not sure it made me feel better or worse.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2007 6:56 PM PST up reply actions

I didnt get it

Pssssh right over my head.

I need to try reading it when im wide awake, which would not be now.

I take it, that it involves either Bedard or Lincecum?

by Slica on Dec 8, 2007 7:08 PM PST up reply actions

Cubs or Orioles

Sanchez could be Soriano or Tejada...maybe leaning towards the Orioles I guess.

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Dec 8, 2007 7:21 PM PST up reply actions

I don't see how it'd be the Cubs

they made the playoffs. My first guess was the Pirates, but I don't know how the players fit.

by Matthew on Dec 8, 2007 7:41 PM PST up reply actions

It was my initial thought after

reading through it the first time and being utterly confused. Soriano and Tejada first came to mind when reading about Sanchez as needing a baby-sitter.

After re-reading and doing more research, I landed on my assumption that is below

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Dec 8, 2007 7:46 PM PST up reply actions

K, I think now its the Orioles

Sanchez is Tejada, Miller is Roberts...Ricky is Bedard, and Adam is Hernandez maybe?

Johnson is probably Markakis

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Dec 8, 2007 7:44 PM PST up reply actions

That makes a lot of sense

Angelos is tired of his image around the league and thus wants to shake things up.

When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Dec 8, 2007 11:06 PM PST up reply actions

I'm thinking Orioles as well

The tone and some of the cues (like the admission that they haven't rebuilt in a while, that the team is a shell of what it was in the 70's and 80's) leads me to believe so.

by Gomez on Dec 9, 2007 12:42 AM PST up reply actions