Why Adam Jones Is Totally Awesome
I didn't think it would come to this, but here we are. And besides, anything to distract us from Silva.
I'm going to talk about glovework first since it's the point that a lot of people seem to be overlooking.
DEFENSE
Once a shortstop, Adam Jones is an extraordinary athlete regarded as a potential Gold Glover in center (I know, I know, Gold Gloves are worthless, but you get the point). Although his experience in the outfield was limited, Jones was terrific in Tacoma last year, helping clowns like Jorge Campillo maintain their appealing ERA's. Then, after getting promoted to Seattle, he had to adjust on the fly to playing a corner and, despite a few ugly drops, performed quite well in a small sample.
Obviously, Ichiro's going to stay in center for as long as he wants, so Jones' immediate future is in right. But don't fall into the trap of assuming this negates the impact of his glove; if Jones is good in CF, then he should be great in RF, relative to his peers (which is how these things are judged).
The way I figure, Jones' defensive contribution probably looks something like this:
(Ed. note: not scientific)
He's a virtual lock to be above-average, and I think, going forward, he should be something like a +10 < x < +20 defensive player in right. Which'll make him stand out, since generally speaking people that good are handed a job in center. This is good news for a pitching staff that isn't going to strike many people out (unless it includes Bedard, but in that case Jones is gone and none of this means anything to us anyway).
Don't ignore the glove. It's an important part of what makes AJ so special.
OFFENSE
AJ has worked hard to eliminate the biggest holes in his offensive game. At this point, he's pretty much a finished product. No, he's never going to draw a ton of walks, and he's always going to strike out a little bit, but that's just his approach. No longer is he easily disposed of with a good breaking ball, and no longer does he give up when he's got two strikes. He's an aggressive, productive player capable of hitting for both average and power.
In a year during which he didn't turn 22 until August, Adam Jones put up a .968 OPS in AAA. The only players in his age group to perform that well were Felix Pie and Billy Butler. That's an impressive accomplishment no matter how you look at it, and it represents AJ's mammoth leap forward, after never previously having topped .849. It's amazing what can happen when a prospect puts everything together.
Yeah, it's possible that AJ could bust in the Majors, but by the time a player performs that well in AAA, a lot of the unpredictability is gone. We're not talking about a Greg Halman here, someone with loads of talent but a long way to go. Prospects who succeed in AAA, as a group, tend to go on to have strong ML careers, with few exceptions. If AJ busts, it'll be because he either starts struggling with injuries or has a huge hole in his swing that as of yet has gone undetected.
Let's put it another way. We know for a fact that a low percentage of prospects who've performed at AJ's level turn into busts. How does this compare to "established Major Leaguers"? In a completely informal study, I grabbed 30 totally random (Excel randomized it for me to remove any bias) qualified ML batters from 2006 and looked at how they did in 2007. Six of them lost at least 20% of their 2006 OPS. In other words, 6 of 30 established Major Leaguers "busted" this year. The odds of an elite prospect like Jones stagnating as a AAAA player are roughly equivalent to those of a "reliable veteran" suddenly doing the same thing.
Let's get over this fear of the Major League adjustment. Yeah, it exists, but very, very rarely does it turn an elite talent like Jones into a bad player. Most people get over it. The odds are on AJ's side.
How do you project his offense? If he ends up like Juan Encarnacion, he's a little above-average overall, thanks to his glove. If he ends up like Reggie Sanders, he's a star. And if he ends up like Curtis Granderson, he's a superstar and eventual HoF candidate. I'll leave it up to you to assign your own probabilities, but the fact of the matter is that if AJ's destined to be any less than at least an average player, he's going to have to really throw us for a loop at the plate. Even if he only repeats last year's small sample .246/.300/.400 for the rest of his life, he's still a decent player. And I think that's the absolute floor.
(For the record, yes, being right-handed in Safeco would take a toll on AJ, but it wouldn't be like Mike Cameron or anything. Jones is a lot better at going the other way.)
COST
Adam Jones is under team control for the next six years. He won't be due for arbitration until the fall of 2010. Over the next three seasons, he'll earn something like $2-3m combined, followed by escalating annual salaries depending on how he performs. But at no point over those six years will he earn FA money. That's not how it works. You know how we think front offices are getting bent over by FA wages? It's the exact opposite for players under team control. They get paid far less than they deserve because they don't have any leverage.
These players - the ones still under team control - are the most valuable players in the game. They give you a lot of production for a very low cost, offering you a ton of flexibility at other positions. You know, the kind of flexibility that enables you to throw huge money at the best free agents on the market to complete the roster. You don't want to be in a position where you're constantly reloading with FA's. You want to be in a position where you're constantly reloading with younger players earning lower salaries. The upside of taking this approach is enormous.
OVERALL
At the very least, Adam Jones is an average overall player who won't be getting paid very much money for a long, long time. The overwhelming probability, however, is that he's even more, a good to great player earning pennies on the dollar for the next six years. Six years! I hate the word "untouchable," because I think you should always be willing to entertain offers for everyone on the roster, but the list of players for whom I'd be willing to give away Adam Jones is only a little longer than the same list for Felix. Forget about whether he'll end up with an OPS of .750 or .800 or .850 or .900; that's only a fraction of the picture, and it undersells his value to the organization. There's so much more to it that people just aren't talking about enough in light of all the Bedard discussion.
I can't make any guarantees as to what lies ahead for Adam Jones. Gun to my head, though, if you forced me to make one, it would be this - trade Adam Jones and you will regret it. Fast.
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All the more better that we got Mr. Silva!
Hurrah for me!
by I Heart Silva on Dec 18, 2007 3:37 PM PST reply actions
I was always excited for Jones
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
To completely oversimplify
Think it's a little low
by Graham MacAree on Dec 18, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
I thought about making that comp
It's a pretty good one. AJ does have a higher offensive ceiling, but Safeco murdered Cameron's peak, and Cameron was also a truly elite defensive center fielder at a level that I don't think AJ can match.
If Adam Jones turns into Mike Cameron, I will be thrilled. Cammy was always a dramatically underrated player in Seattle.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
Remember the Winn/Cammie/Ichiro! defense?
by Graham MacAree on Dec 18, 2007 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
does anyone have cammy's defensive #s from
by seattlebruin on Dec 18, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
According to UZR
Yeah. Otherworldly.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
One of my guesses turned out right?
by Graham MacAree on Dec 18, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions
Seattle fans also didn't really see his bat
Away, while a Mariner: .286/.370/.514
That's just unreal.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
Ouch
I'll admit it
I think should come out, too
Sorry, Mike. That's on me.
I always new Cameron was hellaawesome
by JI on Dec 18, 2007 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
He's come so far
hell
- King Felix
- Washburn (its hurts just to type that)
- Beluga Tits
- Ichiro!
- Adam Jones
i dont know why i have such terrible ideas today.
by seattlebruin on Dec 18, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
I don't
Funny how things turned out... I was defending him all the time when he's bad, now I seem to always be asking about his downside....
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 18, 2007 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
Well written
I still attest that I never said we should trade him. My argument was about the tendency to overrate our prospects and assume their success before it happens. If Adam Jones has what it takes to rise above, then great.
to reiterate the purpose of "prospects"
all the crazy talks about jones for blanton should be disregarded, because he's our best "prospect" and the only way we should trade him is if we get one of the best players in the league. under this kind of thinking, no player is untouchable, and that's fine with me.
It'll be interesting to see how Jones
For comparison: Minor League numbers
Ken Griffey Jr. .318 .425 .572 997 (thru age 18)
Alex Rodriguez .318 .379 .591 970 (thur age 19)
Andruw Jones .302 .389 .543 932 (thru age 19)
B.J. Upton .296 .391 .457 848 (thru age 21)
Carl Crawford .295 .336 .400 736 (thru age 20)
Or another highly regarded OF
major league career: .248, .338, .448
any guesses?
Cruz Jr would be my guess as well.
*BINGO
This is stupid
Players are risky - minor league prospects no more so than major league players. When you know how to evaluate talent, it doesn't matter what level you're playing at. People who think prospects are higher risk just don't know how to evaluate talent.
by davidcameron on Dec 18, 2007 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
If Jones hits like that
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
I always thought
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
Wasn't he injured?
by JI on Dec 18, 2007 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
Cruz (.280, .400, .480)
Jones(.285, .341, .446)
The point is that many back then also thought JC2 was the next big thing when he was called up in 97 (before a lot of you started watching the M's), and of course history proved otherwise.
The M's totally sucked in the back innings during the time, so they traded JC2 for Mike Timlin and Paul Spoljaric. We ended up making the playoff in 97, and Timlin was on the team through 98, and was THE most effective RP on the team BY FAR with a 3.20ish ERA.
Some elite prospects badly underachieve.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions
Well, yeah....
Let's not get overly caught up in the possibility of failure. You try to stack the odds in your favor every time----you should trade Jones only if you a much bigger chance you'll get a player of equal or bigger impact.
Regardless,
So disregard my JC2 example if it makes you all sleep better at night, but giving examples such as Griffey, ARod, Crawford, etc, just simply doesn't prove anything either.
Anyways, so how's everyone doing today? Hope you all are having a good Monday.
ill admit it
damn you woody woodward
by seattlebruin on Dec 18, 2007 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
This isn't about proving anything
Cruz has had a productive career though,
career minor league numbers aren't great to use
Jones has over 250 games in AAA spread out over ages 19-21 where he has a cumulative OPS around 885.
Well, actually...
Far better to use the projections, accept that one or two players will fall out of them, but know that the vast majority of prospects with that kind of performance WILL pan out. And if you have enough of those kind of prospects, you WILL get that superstar.
I'm 100% on that.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 18, 2007 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Trade AJ, Not
by chris d on Dec 18, 2007 8:39 PM PST reply actions
I've always wanted to buy a Adam Jones
+20 runs from RF?
I'm not saying that Adam Jones won't be an excellent RF, but given the low number of plays in RF compared to CF, it seems awfully unrealistic to expect that kind of impact. It's not a question of ability, but of opportunity.
by MrIncognito @ Lookout Landing on Dec 18, 2007 8:44 PM PST reply actions
Self-selection
According to UZR
It's obviously not common, but it's possible, especially for a guy who'd be playing center field for nearly anyone else. One of the reasons corner OF's don't perform that well is because the best defensive ones tend to play center. Jones is an exception to that selection process.
For the record, I don't expect AJ to be +20. I expect him to be between +10 - +20 (true talent level; individual seasons may vary). That's worth noting.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 8:56 PM PST up reply actions
And if you want to put it another way
If Jones defends at the same pace that he did in 2007 over an admittedly small sample, he'd catch 281 balls, plus another ~70 OOZ. That makes him +41 plays over a league-average outfielder, or about +30-35 runs.
Clearly, he won't be a +30-35 run outfielder. He'll regress a little bit, and he won't play every single game, and so on and so forth. But he's already performed at a high level, so the opportunity is absolutely there.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
This whole discussion got me thinking
by JI on Dec 18, 2007 9:31 PM PST up reply actions
Moliere level, I'd say...
I don't know.....
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 18, 2007 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
i think that
by seattlebruin on Dec 18, 2007 9:44 PM PST up reply actions
what were
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 18, 2007 9:51 PM PST up reply actions
UZR doesn't like Ichiro
Because it's tough to get a good read on just how good Ichiro really was as a RF, I'm not sure the best way to go about answering your question. That said, because I think Jones projects to be a good-to-great RF, then he and Ichiro shouldn't be too different in that regard.
They'll probably look different to the eye, since Ichiro is totally unique, but the results shouldn't be too much.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
I was just wonder
Only other one I can think of with the skill set would be Carl Crawford but he was never considered a CF type.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 18, 2007 10:04 PM PST up reply actions
Alex Rios?
by rfloh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 18, 2007 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
See, and that's what the problem is...
I think we can safely say that going from a "Below Average" defender to an "Above Average" defender in RF will noticably help the Mariners' win/loss totals next year (as would going from a "DH" in LF to even an "Average" defender). Any attempt to measure how much, though, is still a relative guess, even if it's a well-educated one. Defense is hugely important, certainly, but you can't get too wrapped up in the numbers -- especially for one specific player -- when looking at the actual impact on the win/loss (RS/RA, pythag, whatever) totals.
Getting a pitcher that can actually miss bats a lot (i.e. at a rate that's nearly double any other non-Felix starter on the staff) would have a hell of a lot more impact on the run-prevention side of the equation, and would reduce the need for having elite defenders in the first place...
by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
Defensive stats aren't that bad
As to your other main point:
Getting a pitcher that can actually miss bats a lot (i.e. at a rate that's nearly double any other non-Felix starter on the staff) would have a hell of a lot more impact on the run-prevention side of the equation
I don't agree with this.
In a hypothetical world where you directly replace Raul Ibanez with an equivalent offensive player who's league-average in the field, you get most of the way to adding Erik Bedard to this rotation, in terms of runs prevented.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed.
I can accept this, sorta, in that, say, using my scale, keeping the player's offense the same and going from a "DH" in the field to "Average" there will be some measurable improvement -- and it quite possibly would be of nearly the same magnitude as adding Bedard to the equation. I'm just not willing to say with even 90% certainty that we can really nail down the specific number. We probably could get a range, sure, but even then, you could be talking about a difference of 10 runs (i.e. a -5 > 0 < +5 glove).
The problem is -- that player (Plus bat, Average glove) isn't necessarily available either. That player would cost the same in terms of prospects or cash as Bedard or #1 or #2 starter (okay, maybe a bit less since #3-4 starters are getting more than those types of players).
I also assent that a ton of Adam's value comes from the fact that he's a) ours (and we wouldn't have to shell out prospects to get him) and b) cheap. Even if it takes him a bit to get started both defensively and offensively (may or may not happen), he's still got a lot of value merely because of his talent. He's clearly ready for the majors, and has the talent to be a useful player, even if it takes him a year or two to become the all-star caliber player he likely will become. Just like we're all still waiting for Felix to become the perennial Cy Young candidate he can be. He certainly doesn't "suck" and he's still nowhere near a "bust" -- but he hasn't exactly been Doc Gooden, either. He's shown flashes of excellence, but he's certainly also shown a ton of vulnerability.
by PositivePaul on Dec 19, 2007 12:18 AM PST up reply actions
Wait, though...
Yeah, I get that Jones could likely be a +10-20 glove. I'm just saying that the 10 run gap between the variability is important not to overlook. Even if they keep Jones and don't land another pitcher, going from Raul in LF to anyone with a +10 bat and even a "0" glove (again, conceding that this can be accurately and precisely measured, which I'm not sure I can concede, really) would be a major step forward, too.
I dunno. I suck at baseball math. It's late, I'm tired...
by PositivePaul on Dec 19, 2007 12:42 AM PST up reply actions
The only thing I don't like...
Yes, Adam Jones could be worth +10 runs with the glove.
But what if, for some bizarre reason, no balls get hit to AJ! Or, for another absurd example, every single ball hit to AJ's position ends up in what would be considered no man's land. You've officially saved 0 runs, despite having your best defensive option in RF.
Impossible, yes, but I do believe it implies that defensive savings are going to be more volatile and not necessarily guaranteed runs saved.
Although I agree with the premise that Jones may be overpayment for Bedard, I don't necessarily see it as the end of the world. Bedard's projected runs saved will more or less be "real" runs saved where as AJ's defensive runs saved will more or less be a theoretical range, especially in a corner position. Combined with the fact that LF is more cavernous and important than RF in Safeco and the complete misfit that is AJ's righty swing, and I don't see the huuuuge fussfesta about losing Jones in RF.
Optimally, I would want to see Jones flipped for a pitcher or non-CF and/or LH batter of similar caliber and contractual situation. Combined with Ichiro in CF, we KNOW Jones is worth more to a team that wants a good, young CF than the M's. Lincecum, Cain, maybe Snell, I dunno. But I just know the M's aren't smart enough to pull something together like the Rays/Twinkies trade.
Favor the Bold
And yes...
As much as I'd love to see the airtight Safeco OF again, it's been done and we didn't really get that far last time. Yes, misuse doesn't mean no use, but alas the M's don't really do anything 100% ever.
If we can get Bedard, keep Wlad in LF or RF and get 90% of what it would be like with Bedard and Jones, I'd be damn happy. But it is only a dream...
Favor the Bold
The airtight OF got us to the playoffs.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 19, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions
What if
These sort of improbable hypothetical scenarios don't serve any purpose other than allowing someone to argue an extremely improbable point.
The difference in the number and type of hits to a certain area of the field from season to season is reasonably small (unless you switched your entire rotation from 5 Felixes to 5 Washburns), thus the range of expected defensive outcomes is reasonably small as well.
I think Ice's point is more
I raised that issue in a USSM thread too, although it had more to do with OF's changing teams/stadia.
I think it's a fair point - given that the total number of balls hit to an OF is much lower than to a SS, say, and given the large number of chances you'd need to really say something definitive about a guy's range based on stats... I think it's fair to wonder how much these things vacillate.
From all I've seen, they don't move all that much. But then I see Ichiro:worst CF in the AL and think that something's quite wrong.
I'd just like to know what the YTY correlation is for UZR and RZR, and I'd also like to know why the two are so freaking different for OFs.
This isn't to argue that there can't be such a thing as a +20 run left fielder. I'm just not sure our current stats alone could identify such people reliably.
Yeah, I definitely missed his first sentence.
Stolen from tangotiger
Correlation of UZR is r=.50, when BIP=400 (100 games). That compares to component pitching ERA of r=.50 when PA=300, and RC or LWTS of r=.50 when PA=200 (50 games).
In short, you need 2 years of UZR or other fielding metric to be as reliable as 1 year of hitting stats. How reliable is Andruw Jones' hitting stats this year? Right, so you'd at least like to have 2 years of hitting stats, if not 3. So, you'd like to have 4 years of fielding stats, if not more.
That's just the nature of the beast though.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 19, 2007 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
I just want to throw this out there
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 10:32 PM PST reply actions
While partially true
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you he's really valuable
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 19, 2007 7:22 AM PST up reply actions
They wouldn't/haven't traded Bucholz for
I would think long and hard about that.
And since Coco Crisp is one of the best defensive outfielders in baseball, the latter scenario looks okay.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 19, 2007 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
While AJ would improve our RF D,
Because the M's don't understand defense
by Graham MacAree on Dec 19, 2007 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
Correct that
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 19, 2007 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't say they're good
Jason Davis
John Parrish
Chris Reitsma
Rick White
Brandon Morrow
Sean White
None were considered good decisions for various reasons.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 19, 2007 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
I think Hargrove forced the hand on Morrow
The front office isn't flawless with bullpen building, but it's pretty damn good.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 19, 2007 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
I still wouldn't say
it got lucky finding diamonds in the rought with Sherrill and Putz performing the way they have.... everyone else has been a head scratcher for one reason or another.
forgot to add Julio Mateo to the list of "bullpen arms" for last year.
Reitsma was being counted on to be the right handed setup guy... that's a pretty important role. When he went down for the count they turned to Rick White.. Misused or not they brought him in for that role because Morrow had control issues.
It's not just the manager but the club overall ... the veteraness!
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 19, 2007 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
I was just thinking
You debating positively about the M's and me debating negatively?
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 19, 2007 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
Alternate Universes?
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 19, 2007 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
Is the LF-CF-RF of
Maybe I just can't stand to watch Raul's noodle arm make 7 hoppers to home for another season.
Raul's arm isn't too bad
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 20, 2007 12:20 AM PST up reply actions
Come to think of it...
I bought it at FanFest last year before Adam Mania reached its current level (Corco can attest to its validity).
Hmmm...
Don't do it Bozo!
by PP on Dec 19, 2007 10:22 AM PST reply actions

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