Okay, Let's Talk About Erik Bedard
So, for potentially murky reasons, the Mariners whiffed on Hiroki Kuroda. Say what you will about the wisdom of giving that guy $35m+ over three years; the bottom line is that, no matter how you feel about Kuroda, the M's were banking on landing him, and now that they they've missed out they have to go to the backup plan. And this isn't an organization that excels at backup plans.
The four most prominent names right now are Bedard, Johan Santana, Carlos Silva, and Kyle Lohse. The Mariners aren't going to get Santana, though, and since no one in his right mind wants to talk about Silva or Lohse on purpose, we're left with Bedard. Let's brainstorm.
I'll get right to it - trading for Bedard, to me, only make sense if you think the Mariners have a 2008-2009 window of opportunity that they have to seize. After that, of course, he's due to be a free agent.
It's a tempting idea. Erik Bedard was the best pitcher in baseball last year, and it'd be hard to beat a one-two punch of Bedard/Felix, assuming Felix finally gets his shit together. Granted, that's only two players, but back in 2001 Arizona rode Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, and an offense no better than ours all the way to a championship. It's funny how far you can get sometimes with an average roster topped off by two aces.
That would definitely be the biggest selling point, I think. "Mariners need pitching, land ace to pair with developing phenom." A #1 starter is perceived as the most dramatic roster upgrade you can get from any one player, and were the M's to bring him in, they'd be in terrific shape for the playoffs were they to win the division or, somehow, the Wild Card. And the whole deal would also serve to re-energize a fan base that's still sore from last August. Try to imagine trading for Erik Bedard and then not being at least a little more excited for the season to start. You can't. The immediate emotional response to acquiring that kind of pitcher is quite positive.
That's the upside. If you think the Mariners ought to be playing for the next two years, then Bedard's not a bad guy to go after. He'd make the team ~30 runs better by himself, and he'd give us arguably the best 1-2 starters in baseball (unless Boston ends up with Santana). You better believe teams would be openly weeping at the prospect of having to face both Bedard and Felix in a three-game series.
Now, what about the other perspective?
There are two ways to look at this from the other side. The first is by calling into question the true impact of trading for Bedard. Bedard projects to be somewhere around 30 runs better than an average starter next year (give or take, I dunno, five). That'd be a huge gain for the Mariners, but you can't just take that number and run with it, because there'd be more to the deal. At the bare minimum, you'd be losing Adam Jones from the ML roster. You then have to replace Jones with somebody. Wlad? That'll cost you ten runs with the glove. Trot Nixon? Kenny Lofton? No better. Geoff Jenkins would be cool, but he's on the verge of signing somewhere else. Brad Wilkerson? Okay, whatever, but he's no AJ. The point is, replacing Jones with an inferior right fielder takes away from the value that Bedard adds to the roster. And if you have to give away other bits of the roster, too (like Sherrill), then you're losing even more. This point is largely moot if you don't think that AJ is ready to contribute, but I think he is, so, yeah.
The other way to look at it is this - 2008/2009 window? Really? The Mariners finished six games behind the Angels last season, and in Pythagorean terms, they were really more like ten games worse. So far this winter the Angels have lost Orlando Cabrera and gained Torii Hunter and Jon Garland. The Mariners, meanwhile, have lost Jose Guillen and replaced him with Adam Jones. Yeah, Weaver and (probably) Horacio are taking their 47 miserable starts somewhere else, but LA's also ditching Bartolo Colon, so even if we've made up a little ground, the gap between us is still damn big, too big for Bedard to erase by himself. Bring him in and we're still just a better version of the second-best team in the division.
For what reason should we be focusing on the next two years? The Mariners don't have a prayer of winning the Wild Card, meaning the West is our only shot, and the Angels are a significantly better team than we are. If anything, we should be re-stocking so as to mount a charge after the next two years. Not only is a lot of the Angels' core over 30, but everyone important besides Hunter, Matthews, Kotchman, Kendrick, and Weaver is coming up on free agency. The Mariners, meanwhile, will have all of their crap coming off the books and a lot of their young talent coming up through the ranks to join Ichiro, Felix, Morrow, JJ, and Yuni. Opportunity beckons. We just have to be patient.
I'll stop there because that's basically a whole other post. What it comes down to is that I can't in good faith support the idea of unloading a hefty package to bring in Erik Bedard. If the Mariners were just about even with the Angels, or if the Wild Card were wide open, then yeah, I'd be more receptive, but they're behind the rest of the pack by a comfortable margin, and if Bedard only increases the odds of making the postseason from, say, 15% to 20-25%, then I don't think it's worth it. The long-term cost would just be far too large for the short-term gain.
This isn't just a case of some Mariners blogger overrating his team's prospects, either. Jones isn't a sure thing. Morrow isn't a sure thing. Nobody, not even Triunfel, is a sure thing. Everybody we'd trade for Bedard could turn into a bust. However, just because something could happen doesn't make it a valid reason to make a move or stand still; you need to look at the probabilities, and to me they say that we'd be better off keeping Jones+ than we would be dealing them for two seasons of Bedard.
Look, in no way do I want to just write off both 2008 and 2009 in anticipation of making a run three years from now. This isn't a bad team, and conceding defeat this early on the heels of the first interesting summer in ages isn't going to make people happy. With that said, there are ways to make this team better, ways to make it more competitive, that don't involve sacrificing so much of our promising future. Trade for one of the Devil Rays. Pay someone to take Sexson and bring in a left fielder. Sign Colon, Clement, or some other reclamation project and hope they stay healthy long enough for Morrow to make some major strides in AAA. And so on and so forth. None of these things is nearly as sexy as bringing in a clear #1, but as a whole they're just about as effective, and none of them involves giving away many things we may need down the road. That's the key. What Bill Bavasi should be doing right now is figuring out a way to make this team better while simultaneously protecting much of the talent that could help us later on, when our chances will be better.
I absolutely love Erik Bedard. He's a phenomenal and inexplicably underrated stud starting pitcher, and if the Mariners bring him in, then two days out of every five, I won't be able to wait for the first pitch.
I do not, however, think that trading for him, at the assumed price, would be in our best interests. Not for a team in our position.
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276 comments
Comments
I have a hard time seeing us finish .500
by JI on Dec 16, 2007 8:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think Sexson will hit okay
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we are a little better than .500
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 16, 2007 9:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Consider me skeptical.
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by JI on Dec 16, 2007 11:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Vidro's inevitable decline
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 11:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw this mentioned elsewhere
by CapSea on Dec 16, 2007 9:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of the smartness
by Matthew on Dec 16, 2007 9:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think we make the mistake of
The thing is we have to decide the direction we're headed - as the reason for a farm system is either to groom them for the ML or trade them for stars.
As we know, prospects rarely live up to their potential (see Corey Patterson). Remember back in the early 2000s when we thought that by now our rotation would be led by Pineiro, Meche, and Franklin? I remember that Tacoma was oozing with pitching prospects - Thornton, Blakely, and even Ryan Anderson (what a depressing story btw) etc, and look at what happened?
So no, I don't believe we should totally scorch the farm system, but I do recognize that we shouldn't treat prospects anymore than what they are - unpolished/unfinished products.
by wwbaker3 on Dec 16, 2007 9:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Notice that all those prospects you named were
by Goose on Dec 16, 2007 9:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
by helfgott on Dec 16, 2007 9:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That is not what he is saying
by Gomez on Dec 16, 2007 9:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
In the case of elite hitting prospects, it's demonstrably false.
by helfgott on Dec 17, 2007 12:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That depends on your definition
And that doesn't disprove his statement that prospects rarely live up to their potential. Most prospects overall don't, even top ones. Citing elite prospects is citing the cream of that crop, rather than the whole body of prospects.
by Gomez on Dec 17, 2007 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
by helfgott on Dec 17, 2007 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Basically
If Jones were not in the discussion there isn't a combination of 4 Ms minor leaguers/young major leaguers I wouldn't be happy sending off for Bedard, and I'm guessing most people here feel the same way.
The category of prospects to which Jones unquestionably belongs has a very good success rate of at least becoming above average major league players. The super athletic ones who play premium positions have an even better success rate.
"Most prospects overall don't, even top ones."
You've said this twice now in the exact same language. You've been wrong both times.
A prospect doesn't need to become an all star to "pan out" and become a valuable player.
by helfgott on Dec 17, 2007 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But not all prospects 'pan out'
He possibly could. And he possibly couldn't. And that's the point.
You need to do a better job of explaining why I'm wrong.
by Gomez on Dec 17, 2007 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody could possibly do or not do anything
We can't predict the future, so instead we look at probable outcomes based on previous history. Jones will probably become a regular contributor at a decent-to-very-high level, based on the history of previous players with similar skills and track records to his. That's the real point.
by patsfan on Dec 17, 2007 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a rather optimistic generalization
More later.
by Gomez on Dec 17, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 5:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Conversely
by Gomez on Dec 18, 2007 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he's really good?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 9:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We all seem to be underrating Jones, actually
Jesus.
by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you mean Pitchers' Park...
by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 9:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, I did mean pitchers'
And while I agree he needs some adjustment, that's still a ludicrous line for someone his age to be putting up. We really couldn't have asked for more out of him in Tacoma last year.
by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sssssafe.
by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He played a lot of games in launchpads
He's a good player, especially for his age. Does it translate full-time against MLB pitching? Maybe it will, and in spades. But there are lot of guys who can OPS .950-1.000 in the PCL and can't do shit in the Majors. Shit, Nick Green had a monster year last season.
by Gomez on Dec 18, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so...
but we should also ignore or discredit numbers when it's a contradiction to our agenda?
now that's being a true politician.
by wwbaker3 on Dec 18, 2007 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Numbers are important for Major Leaguers
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We should always look at everything, obviously
by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or look at them
If you want to throw out random references to thinks like park factors, might want to actually understand how they effected the player in question.
by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Look, I like Adam Jones, and I understand he's arguably the team's top prospect right now. In fact, if you'd go back I make it clear I wouldn't deal him for Bedard.
But... and Matthew and others briefly brought this up after the game on Sunday... Mariner fans on this and other Mariner blogs have a complex about vastly overrating their own prospects, the ceilings, their abilities and so on. Jeff kind of scratched the surface on that argument in his original entry but proceeded to maintain the status quo.
We won't know Adam Jones is a star until he gets the requisite ABs, sure. But as far as you and others are concerned, he already is, without needing to provide the requisite visual proof at the MLB level. And that's the problem we're having. We did the same thing with Doyle. And Ryan Anderson. And Shin-Soo Choo. And Asdrubal Cabrera. And plenty of others.
I am not about to waste a holiday compiling a comprehensive list of prospects and how they ended up to prove to you that many of the best prospects are question marks... not that you or anyone else bothered to do the same to prove your respective points.
So all I can do, in the unlikely event that Bavasi deals Jones for Bedard or anyone else, that a) most of you don't kill yourselves and b) that the bitter histrionics die down after a couple of days.
by Gomez on Dec 18, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bad day at work?
by CapSea on Dec 18, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, what?
Or Cabrera?
We overvalue our prospects, most of us have noticed this and compensate for it. We're overdoing it on Jones.
by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What?
-Nobody ever trusted Snelling's ability to stay healthy. Nobody.
-Ryan Anderson was great until he got a pitching injury.
-Shin-soo Choo was never a very good prospect and the people who called him such were dumb.
-You may not have noticed, but Adrubal Cabrera is good, and he wasn't even considered that much of a player by most of us (except marc) when he was with the Mariners.
Jones is very, very good, and there's no comparison between him and Anderson, considering AJ isn't about to injure his elbow or shoulder while pitching like a crazy idiot. The odds of him stagnating right now are about the same as those of any "established" Major Leaguer suddenly falling off the cliff.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A few problems
- Who the hell said Jones is a guaranteed star? He's a GREAT bet to be league average with a plus glove. On top of that, out of the thousands of guys whose established major league performances aren't yet known, Jones is a better bet than all but about 10 of them to be a star.
- If you compiled such a list you'd see exactly what I said. When you look at any reputable list of the top 10-15 or so hitting prospects in baseball, the vast majority of them end up being very valuable. You can (and seem to) believe that's not true on a hunch, but you would be (and are) wrong.
by helfgott on Dec 19, 2007 1:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And...
by helfgott on Dec 19, 2007 1:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What Jeff said
Also, dismissing probable outcomes based on previous history as "only educated guesses" is a cheap way out. Yes, technically it's correct, so we could banter back and forth all day about what we think Jones may or may not do and both claim we are right. That's just an exercise in futility. I can't prove you "wrong" any more than you can prove me wrong.
But certain predictions ARE more correct than others, if they are based on something that is demonstrably true. That's the case here. I'm sure you can find many comparable prospects to Jones who flamed out miserably, if that's your goal. Feel free to do so, if you like. But the fact remains a big enough percentage of prospects of Jones' pedigree and skillset have been successful that I'm comfortable saying that Jones will probably also be sucessful.
by patsfan on Dec 17, 2007 10:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
You aren't saying "not all," at least you weren't until this point. You said MOST top prospects don't pan out. That's simply not true.
Adam Jones is an elite hitting talent in the upper minors. Given both his combination of athleticism/projection and present performance and the history of similar players this close to the majors, the chances that he succeeds and becomes an incredibly valuable player are far greater than the chances that he busts.
De-valuing Jones because he's "unproven" is the kind of thing shitty GMs do on the way to ruining their franchises.
by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If all Jones becomes is league average
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A league average hitter + his glove
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha...
by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah so I'm saying
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty high league-average
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn you Safeco. Got me again
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No there aren't
Of the thousands of guys with professional contracts who haven't played a full major league season, Jones has a better chance than all but about 10 of them to be a perennial all-star talent. Good teams don't give these guys away for rentals when they're right on the verge of breaking through.
by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again,
Anyways, we have to remember the purpose of "prospects" - you either get them ready to play in the ML for your ballclub, or you trade them for established stars. You have to pick a direction to go, because you simply cannot be wishy-washy about this subject.
by wwbaker3 on Dec 16, 2007 9:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well...
The hitters we can call unqualified busts from those lists: Jason Stokes, Sean Burroughs, Angel Berroa, Drew Henson, Alex Escobar, Antonio Perez, Dee Brown, Chin-Feng Chen, and Joe Borchard.
Perez and Berroa aged a year and a half and two years respectively as a result of age-gate.
Four years of top 20 prospects yields seven true busts and two guys who wouldn't have been on the list with the knowledge available today on the offensive side. Every other hitting prospect on the list (27 out of the 34 unique players in the top 20 those 4 years) ranges from at least a serviceable major leaguer to perennial all-star. Patterson, your example of a bust, turned in above average performances in 2003, 2004, and 2006 when you factor in defense/positional value.
Top tier offensive prospects fail far less often than you think they do.
I don't think anyone would mind giving up a combination of Balentien/Clement/Sherrill/Tillman/Halman/Morrow/Butler/Ramirez/Saunders/Tui . We could probably even stomach the idea of losing Triunfel's sky-high ceiling. The thing this community is worried about is that acquiring Bedard means losing the first elite MLB-ready offensive talent the team has had in a decade. That's not a case of overrating prospects.
by helfgott on Dec 16, 2007 11:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Corey Patterson is not
At age 21, AJ had a 968 OPS in 469 PAs at AAA.
273 points of OPS, is in a 150 game season about a 55 runs difference.
The gap between the 2 of them is HUGE.
by rfloh on Dec 17, 2007 12:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, we probably undervalue them
Even an average pre-free agent player can be worth $10-15 MM over his first six years. A player that becomes top-tier, like many think Jones has a good chance of being, could be worth as much as $50 MM or more to a team. You did see the contract Torii Hunter just signed, didn't you? For reference, Jones will be getting $380,000 next year, and over the next six years, if he becomes All-Star level, will be paid roughtly $20-30 MM, but will have been worth somewhere around 60-100. Or a savings of about 30-70 million for whatever team has him. If he only becomes a somewhat better-than-average player, he probably still gets $15-20 MM, and the team would still see significant savings of 20-30 million. Bedard himself is still pre-free agent, so he also is a relative bargain, but not so much now that he's in his last two years of arbitration. He'll be paid (as a guess) about $25 MM for his next two seasons, a savings of about $15 MM, roughly. So even Jones straight up for Bedard wouldn't be a good deal for the M's, let alone adding more good young players into the trade.
The best course of action is to zealously gaurd that good young talent so you can build that core group that can serve as a foundation for a winning club. Then you use the savings to fill in around them with expensive free agents that you can acquire without giving up talent in return.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 1:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lopez isn't worth too much right now
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 1:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Additionally,
by wwbaker3 on Dec 17, 2007 5:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is absolutely true
It's the right kind of idea but the wrong kind of team.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Jones is the big issue here
Also, this move cannot be made by itself. It would have to be done, as Jeff eludes to, as part of a plan to make several important steps to improve the 2008 team. The good news is that they are doable steps. Bad news is they won't be done.
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
umm, it goes both ways
by Brohan on Dec 17, 2007 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know about that Pierzynski trade.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We lost out on Kuroda?
by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 16, 2007 9:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The long term damage
by TIF on Dec 16, 2007 9:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If we strike gold twice
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 9:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Makes perfect baseball sense, but ...
If Jones is traded the average fan doesn't see that as any loss - since Jones isn't on the big league roster his lost production isn't apparent.
*
I think this all sets up for the Mariners to "pay what is needed" to bring a front line pitcher.
by Steve Nelson on Dec 16, 2007 9:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Orioles insider says he got a text
by Fett42 on Dec 16, 2007 9:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
So they want Clement now?
I prefer keeping Clement...simply because he's build for Safeco.
by wwbaker3 on Dec 16, 2007 9:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What a brilliant idea.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 10:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who / where
by seattlesundevil on Dec 17, 2007 2:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Bedard's going anywhere
I'd say let's do it, MAYBE, if the tag only involved one of Jones or Morrow, and maybe a couple of other top prospects (Clement or WLAD or one of the low-minors pitching talents like Butler or Tillman) or even AAAA spare parts like Feierabend or Morse), a huge but do-able sacrifice... but I'm thinking the Orioles will want both, and at least 2-3 of the aforementioned others.
by Gomez on Dec 16, 2007 9:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
And then Fett's post. LOL.
by Gomez on Dec 16, 2007 9:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have a change of heart, Jeff?
Way I see it, if you're going to throw out that many quality prospects, why not go for Santana. Oswalt. Kazmir.
If Tampa Bay really was talking to us about Jackson for Broussard, its pretty clear we wouldnt have to give up that much. Id rather take a risk at him if he is available at cheap.
Never once did I say Bedard sucks, im just unsure if he is worth it.
by Slica on Dec 16, 2007 10:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Jeff is Right ON
We simply won't be as good as the Angels if we get Bedard. Or Bedard and Colon. And I'm not ready to give up Jones/Morrow or Jones/Clement for two years of Bedard and a couple of second-place finishes in the West.
Trade Sexson, Lopez, and Ibanez and move on.
Lord, I hate being a Mariners fan.
by tait644 on Dec 16, 2007 10:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not as down on this team as everyone else
by Mariner John on Dec 16, 2007 10:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Is Clement ready to hit in the majors?
- Play AJ
- Sign Colon to 1-year deal
- Put Morrow in the starting rotation
- Sign Prior and pitch him out of the bullpen after he is healthy
by Wilder83 on Dec 16, 2007 11:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think we're overrating
Right now from what I saw Jones still takes some bad routes and misjudges balls... he'll get better then that, but I don't think it will be right away like next year, I think it'll be 09 or later before he's considered an above average defender.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 16, 2007 11:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Any weird routes that you saw Jones take probably happened because he played center all year in Tacoma, and had to adjust on the fly to a corner in an unfamiliar ballpark. With a little more winter experience under his belt, I think he should be okay. It might take him a little while yet, but I figure by May or so he should be comfortable.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 11:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think one thing to keep in mind
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 12:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Couple comments
Another question is if there is anybody we are bidding against for Bedard? Dodgers don't need him anymore. Angels don't really need him. Boston will be stacked if they get Santana and don't really need him but might go for him if Santana doesn't pan out. Yankees might go for him if they don't get Santana. I don't know as much about the NL teams but one of the big ones, the diamondbacks are out of the running now. If we are the only really serious ones then it should bring down the cost some right? Hopefully we are smart enough to not offer too much with the ball in our court. What am I saying, he's a starting pitcher so there is no way we'll value him correctly.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 12:47 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Reds have shown interest.
by Goose on Dec 17, 2007 1:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
AL East...
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, it must have been late
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 9:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Erik Bedard
by AK1984 on Dec 17, 2007 1:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
niceeeeeeeeeee
by MarinerintheDistrict on Dec 17, 2007 4:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bedard
Here's my gut feelings on Bedard.
If we get him, I'll be quite excited. Excited, because we actually landed a top-of-the-line pitcher. Excited that we actually have a one-two punch. Excited because our rotation will suddenly look decent.
It's going to be a while before the concequences sink in. I will have to see instances where we pay dearly for giving up that one prospect that could've helped us win that certain game.
I'd like to have Bedard, but I also want this team to improve without blowing the farm. Decisions, decisions.
by ThundaPC on Dec 17, 2007 3:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Keeping Jones won't allow us to match up
Any package of Jones/Morrow, Jones/Clement, or Jones/Sherrill/Tui, should start the deal. Saunders, Butler, Reed, plus other IF'ers should be enough to sprinkle on top.
That's it. Two blue chippers, or 1 blue, 1 MLB RP, and B-IF'r. plus A-AA throwin.
If Jones is gone, we will live. We have a CF for now, Wlad or Jimerson (carl crawford-lite) can play LF better than Raul. Hitting MLB pitching would be the real question.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 8:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
the point is
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the problem is
I don't think it's about just keeping Jones. It's keeping players who can help us in the future. The risk is punting quite a bit of the future for a two-year rental and in that timeframe we either have to beat the Angels, who would still have a better overall rotation than ours, or challenge for the Wild Card, which is becoming SERIOUSLY overcrowded.
by ThundaPC on Dec 17, 2007 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We're playing the October matchup game already?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
HERETIC!!!!
But yeah, it's a bit early to start setting up the postseason rotation for a team that probably won't even MAKE the postseason.
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but how do you know
by drm1125 on Dec 17, 2007 9:18 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
We could also win the WS without Bedard
Willie Bloomquist walk off grand slam to win it all!
by Graham on Dec 17, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody's talking a lucky charms season
Add an extension window before the trade, attempt to extend him for 2-3 MORE years at 16-22 per.
If he won't do it, shit can the trade and hope Morrow and Horam can carry us to a WS. Our rotation sucks balls without bedard, but looks awesome with him in it.
I am just tired of looking at a weekend series and seeing: Felix v. Lackey, Wash v. Escobar, Batista v. Garland OR Felix v. Beckett, Wash v Schilling, Batista v. Matz
We simply do not match up past our first pitcher and if he has a rough outing, then the whole series is eff'd.
Outfield and pitching are our glaring holes. Which is easier to fill? Which is more difficult? Are we a penny-pinching 65mill payroll or are we a 105 mil payroll? Do we have replacements for our holes in OF and rotation?
So if Jones stays, no bedard.
we have Morrow, Baek, Fiereerererbend, Dickey, Lehr, Silva, Loshe, Colon, Prior to fill our 2 spots AND WASH is your number 2 TOR starter.
Jones/Morrow go, Bedard becomes lead anchor.
we have Wlad, Reed, Jimerson, Jenkins, Wilkerson, Shawn Green, Luis Gonzo, Lofton, Shannon Stewart,or rondell white to fill the outfield holes. not pretty, but your rotation matches up, aahhhh crap, we'd be Tampa Bay.
No one in the M's blogosphere seems to be excited about acquiring high dollar FA pitchers (no good one have really been available for a few years), so when do we upgrade our rotation? After all the fielders are set, after Felix is tired of pitching alongside of suckiness and is ready to be traded. We need to show him that pitching is important to our org, sending him out there 'alone' is not the message I want to send to the face of the franchise.
Maybe we need to decide who IS the face of the franchise (besides Ichiro). Is it Jones, or is it Felix? You really can't have both. If you choose Jones, you push Felix out of town by not committing to a frontline rotation. If you choose Felix, well, Jones is gone and the M's get a mention on ESPN. I can't really decide, both scenarios have upside, just different levels of known upside.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 10:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't know what you're talking about.
by Graham on Dec 17, 2007 10:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why do you say shit like this?
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
although I should also point out
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That makes me less sure of my position
by Graham on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cue Benny Hill music
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Everybody would be excited
And Bedard said he's testing free agency no matter what. Good luck getting him to sign that extension.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh goody, lets give up the idea of winning
Clearly, when Ibanez, Richie, and Vidro are gone, replaced by Wlad, FA X and Y (Clement could be Y) then we will be in a better position to add to our rotation.
3 more years of Felix ALONE, Extend wash, extend batista, then 7 yrs/199 mill for Bedard/Santana/Kazmir, ahhh I see it's so clear now.
Its fair to say I know shit, but an opinion of 'lets hold off till 20??' for a 100 mil team doesn't sound/look to good.
Either way, however you want to see it, Bavasi will pull the trigger on the deal now matter how valuable the kids are to you, if the Orioles are interested because MLB talent will always be WORTH more. Plus Bavasi doesn't give a shit about the M's 3 years from now, he wants a job in 09 which means win in '08.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Read the 3rd-to-last paragraph
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you new to this blog?
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to endorse one plan of action
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not quite true
It obviously didn't work very well, because Ramirez's groundball tendencies couldn't overcome the fact that he's terrible, and Yuni seemed to take a step backward defensively. Bavasi also gave up a lot (in players and money) to get those pitchers. It might not have been the smartest plan, but it was a plan.
by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I think you're right....
I still don't think I would do it for even just Jones straight up, but it's worth thinking about.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
But he doesn't. So...
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Miracles don't happen twice.
Also, the Angels were very good last year.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Angels were good last year
Garrett Anderson had a year surpassing his previous 3 years by a wide margin... at age 35
Chone Figgins at age 29 surpassed his career numbers by a wide margin (.293/.354/.400) with a line of .330/.393/.432
John Lackey well surpassed his career averages and had the best year of his career
Kelvim Escobar also had his best season as a starter
I think the Angels are a solid club, but they also were the beneficiaries of some young players having their best seasons as well like Kotchman... are these repeatable or was it just one of those seasons like the M's of 2001?
Again I think they're a solid club, but I don't think they're nearly head and shoulders above the M's.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
very true
In short, there is every reason to expect similar performances from their starting five, and at least an equal performance from their position players. They set the bar for this division, and they set it quite high.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we can outscore them next year
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean with a hefty, yet empty average?
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He'll be worse.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They definitely had some overachievers
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For Kotchman,
Year by year OPS+ from 2004 aged 21: 51, 122, 14, 119. His career numbers are dragged down by the years when he was struggling with weird maladies like mono. He is unlikely to repeat a 14 OPS+.
He has a very good record in the minors, career 325-401-493.
He was finally healthy last year. He will only be 25 in 2008. There is a very good change that he will be better in 2008 than he was in 2007.
Kotchman and Kendrick should improve, given their ages and records in the minors.
by rfloh on Dec 17, 2007 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We had good fortune in some areas, BUT...
Second, John Lackey and Kelvim Escobar pitched very well, yes. However, it might interest you to know that there are only two pitchers that have been top 10 in the AL in ERA 3 years in a row: Johan Santana and John Lackey. Lackey will be 29 this year, so did he have a career year or is he entering his prime?
Escobar will be 32, and yes he posted a career ERA as a full time starter last year. Of course, he also posted a career ERA as a starter in 2006, and 2 years before that in 2004 as well. Escobar is, interestingly enough, a demonstration of what happens when a 2 pitch guy learns a 3rd pitch and finds out he has a really good version. He's kind of like JJ Putz in that regard. It's unlikely he'll get much better, but I wouldn't expect a huge fall off either.
Third, Chone Figgins is unlikely to hit .330 again...or is he? It was said he's not Ichiro Suzuki, and barring last year he certainly hasn't been. But what is the reason for that? Ichiro's BB/SO ratio is a little better than Figgin's but not very much. Ichiro is a smarter baserunner, but evidence suggests he's not really much faster than Figgins. So why? Well, 2004-2006, Figgins posted an average GB/FB ratio of 1.06. For comparison's sake, Ichiro averaged a 2.30 G/F ratio. Of course, this includes the outlier 2004 season, when Ichiro had a G/F ratio over 3, but even in 2005 and 2006, he an average of 1.9. In 2007, however, Figgins had a G/F ratio of 2.06. Ichiro had a G/F ratio of 2.32. I guess what I'm saying is that it shouldn't come as a shock if Figgins posts an average over .300 again.
Fourth, the Angels gave over 200 plate appearances to Shea Hillenbrand and his 57 OPS+ because Juan Rivera broke his leg in winter ball. Bartolo Colon likewise ate (heh) 18 starts and almost 100 innings with a 6.34 ERA. So it's not like their luck was all good.
by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins 2007 BABIP: .399
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 7:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ichiro's was .390
by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Compare Ichiro's GB + LD% to Figgins'
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 8:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed?
by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins had an unsustainably high LD%
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 8:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
morrow's projected value
by zachsullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
No idea
He's a solid prospect, though. I'd give him...I dunno, 30-40% odds of being a good pitcher by 2009/2010?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't read all the responses,
Side note-you said HoRam is probably gone. Really? I thought we offered him. Are you expecting him to sign with someone else?
by BaltimoreMarinersFan on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think we're expected to give him a shot
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we end up with two starters
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So who's going to command our rotation
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One of the 200 other pitchers we've never heard of
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its not really.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am a M's fan either way
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yep like in 2004
or 2005 when he addressed C and SP and DH
or 2006 when he addressed SP and DH and RF
Bill Bavasi fails many times on actually getting the right players, but he always tried, he has the right ideas, and he knows where the problems are on the big league roster.
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Mariner LF
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nobody can successfully deliver that fix
by seattlebruin on Dec 17, 2007 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Getting Jose Cruz Jr.
by Faux on Dec 18, 2007 7:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Tillman? Butler? Aumont? Feir? Ramirez?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly! We just keep waiting
Just so I get my fan-dome intact: We're waiting.
Until a pitcher blooms from within OR until we pay 7/199 OR until pitcher from NW wants to pitch for us really bad. Gotcha!! GO OFFENSE!!!
Oh wait, we have Bavasi. So he'll speed the waiting up for us. Thank goodness he knows how to evaluate talent and is capable of acquiring it.
Tried and failed, yep that's our guy. I guess its enough that he tried.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what your point is
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
my point is
If signing 4 reclamation projects each offseason is what we want to do, then I won't be surprised when Felix wants to test free agency.
I am a fan. I apologize for not contributing the stat-heavy, overly well thought out material. I read this site for fun, insightful mariner discussions, not to force my crappy ideas on the rest of the world.
I want the best M's team 105 mill will buy. Whatever that is.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not so much about waiting
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Felix won't be eligible for free agency
Man, just briefly thinking about Felix leaving makes me a sad panda. My bobbleheads will be covered in tears.
by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Say we pass on Bedard
How many years do we have left of having Felix under club control? 3 years max?
That means by the time 2010 comes around Felix will be in his free agent year, and you know he's going to be extremely highly coveted if he continues to improve. So we're going to be in a cycle of seeing the young guys get adjusted to perform (Jones, Clement, Morrow, Wlad and the likes) and see our one true ace on the verge of being on the free agent market. (Note: I don't see any pitcher in our minor league system that projects to above average talent on the mound in the next few years except maybe Morrow and he's a huge question mark as a starter).
Anyway you look at it, this team the way its constructed and with the available parts in its minor league system is always going to be looking for something it doesn't have.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 12:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Felix isn't an FA for four years
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought his 89 inning season
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Felix has 2 years and 60 days of service time
At least that's how I understand it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the thing is...
He's pencilled in as a corner outfielder, absolutely no doubts about it. And there are some skills that he has that overwhelmingly counteracts any problems he'd have as a relative newcomer (problems he'd have no matter when he came up)---range is something tangible he brings to the table, and it's something the team needs and can count on.
Thinking seems to be biased toward his offensive output, but it's his defense that's going to be valuable as well.
by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 12:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
And yet
For Jones ultimate value, he needs to play CF, but then Ichiro will be 'devalued' in RF.
Ibanez in LF is our big problem, he is the domino that sets other moves into action.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
by OBF on Dec 17, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Link?
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
[citation needed]
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
seriously, link
by seattlebruin on Dec 17, 2007 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we can chalk that one up to
Other than Craig Biggio, people almost never move back to the IF once they have been out in the grass.
Not to mention that he was not a great SS anyway, and has the potential to be an extremely good OF.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell...
by Tom2000 on Dec 18, 2007 1:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we assume
Seriously, if Bavasi laid out a 100 mil offer (6 years) after we trade for him, would he really turn that down, with TWO possible injury years before getting to FA. Would YOU?
I should hope you wouldn't. The first 100 mil is WAY more important than the last 10-20.
Plus it would be a huge raise over what he is making now (3.4 mil)
by OBF on Dec 17, 2007 1:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You could just wait until he's an FA
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That has been his stance so far.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not sure debating it is even an issue.
Bavasi is the 'make a splash' GM, not the 'make a calculated decision' GM.
Our rotation 07 reminds me of our 3rb base debacle in 02-04, when it gets so bad that rich-season ticket holders know our 3rd baseman sucks it's time to make a splash. In comes Beltre. Same thing this offseason. EVERYONE saw how terrible Weaver and Horam were and that Wash is more of a number 5 than a #2. Bill is again ready to make a splash. He didn't get to last year, so he's ready to do it again. 2 years of Bedard IS worth it to him, although, the more 'informed' reports I see on Jones makes this untrue.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Big difference.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Question...
I mean, clearly Jones is the centerpiece to any deal for Bedard or (less likely) extended-Santana. That's a safe assumption. If, however, the M's and O's were able to manage a trade giving up, say, Morrow, Clement, Saunders, Tillman, and maybe a few other pieces, is it still a problem?
We also have to consider the way the front office handles its players and the way that players bats settle into Safeco. Is the team's management smart enough to stick Jones in LF in Safeco where his defensive strengths are maximized (assuming Ichiro stays in CF)? Good question. It sounds like he's moving over to RF, where he'll still be a good defender, but in Safeco it's perhaps a slightly less important position to man.
For the sake of argument, let's say that having an above-average defender in LF is more crucial in Safeco than having one in RF. So, the fact that the M's management doesn't recognize this and utilize Jones in this role diminishes his value to the M's even slightly. It's not Jones' fault, of course, but it's still an issue.
Likewise, the fact that Jones is a RH bat in Safeco takes away a little bit of his value to the M's, too. I'm not sure if he's the type of hitter that can adjust to Safeco well, but he's certainly good enough of a hitter that he'll be a solid bat.
Certainly Jones is one of our top young players. He's one of the top up-and-comers in the game, position-player-wise. But considering that the Mariners can spend money on players (unlike teams like Cleveland, Minnesota, Oakland, etc.) AND they are run extremely inefficiently, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to trade Jones for a player like Bedard whose specific value to the M's (and the obstacles they place in front of themselves) is probably higher than Jones is now and possibly will be in the future (if, say Bedard decides he likes Seattle, and likes the bushels of $$$ they throw at him in free agency).
Bottom line, I have some reservations about Jones' future with the M's. Clearly the issue becomes what one's assessment of the long-term risks of trading away Jones for a potential two-year "rent-an-ace" is. Jones' overall value could be lessened by remaining in Safeco and within this dumb organization. I'm intrigued by the possibility of getting someone whose value is a) presently higher than Jones' value and b) will be better utilized by a less-than-well-run Mariners organization.
The key to all of this, though, is the package that it will take to land Bedard. Obviously it starts with Jones and will take more than that, likely. But if something like Wlad+Morrow+Butler+Saunders+whatever gets the job done, then I think folks' perspectives on acquiring Bedard changes quite a bit. Even if it's still "expensive" (prospect-wise), the fact that Jones himself isn't included will also temper peoples' reactions. I'm not so attached to Jones that I'm unwilling to surrender him in a deal for Bedard. But I recognize I'm clearly in a minority. Yeah, gutting the farm for Bedard (i.e. Jones + CLement + Wlad + Morrow + etc...) isn't smart. But Jones' immediate future production probably is somewhat replaceable (i.e. you can find glove-strong OFers that can hit enough or bat-strong OFers who can field enough).
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 1:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Let's forget about Jones' value for a moment
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly?
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But that again assumes
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
The M's surprised a heck of a lot of people last year. Yeah, you can call it "luck" you can call it whatever. But if the M's have any semblance of a better rotation last year and even ONE pitcher that could go 6+ innings without giving up 5-6 runs, then they're a MUCH better team since the bullpen doesn't get so desperately worn down in August. Maybe they lose a step, offensively, by giving up on Guillen. Who's to say, though. There's certainly a lot of question marks for the M's, too.
But if the M's add Bedard and keep Jones, they still can make one or two moves to build some depth and hedge some injuries and still hang somewhat respectably with the Angels. It'll take a lot less to get there by adding Bedard and a few smaller pieces than what the M's could try and do without landing him...
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the thing, though
You're right about that, but I have this horrible feeling that if the M's do get Bedard, they'll hang a big "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner at Safeco and call it good for the off-season. And that, while definitely an improvement, is not as much of an improvement as the M's would need to close the gap with LAAAAAAofAAA.
I just know how completely hot-or-cold this M's offense was in '07, and if nothing besides the elevation of Jones is done, I don't see that getting any better any time soon.
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally
If we could (see Matthew's diary), I'd change my tune.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There are two sides to it, for sure...
Getting Bedard for two years is not maximizing Jones' return.
Defensive outfielders with above-average to plus offensive skills are at a premium right now. Rowand gets 5/60, Hunter signs for 5/90 and a broken Andruw Jones gets 18 mil per.
While Baltimore is being very smart in asking for the world for Bedard - because someone might give them half of that, if not more - but the Mariners should be treating Jones the same way.
While he isn't proven at the big-league level, Bedard doesn't have a track record as an ace, either.
Personally, I'm at the point where I wouldn't make the deal if Jones was the only player heading east.
by JasonAChurchill on Dec 17, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I literally couldn't say it better myself.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it matters how you feel
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you keep saying this definitively?
by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have to *really* think about it
To compete in 2008 the Mariners need to do two things (and really, only these two things):
- Fill 2 rotation spots
- Improve OF defense while not punting OF offense
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't do it
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again.
That said, I'd still prefer Johann pull his head out and figure out what a nice place Seattle would be for him to pitch in. A Jones-ful package for Johann would be much more palatable to me...
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Careful, he only has 1 year left
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, yeah.
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Jones falls short of his potential
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hm. I said that.
by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed!
But, which FA's are easier to acquire? TOR's or TORRII's?
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Since I don't know what a TORRII is
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It was TOR v. Torii (or other offensive OF'rs)
Still think TOR's are easier than rowand/hunter/crawford?
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me how you'd improve the OF defense
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why the fixation on #1 starters?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm.
Yeah, Felix is on his way. He's not there yet. It'd be nice to have one while we're waiting for him...
I'm tired of "projects". The M's are a rich club. There's no reason for them not to have a decent rotation, with two guys at the top.
by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure they need one
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It matters in the playoffs.
Bedard,Felix, Batista, Wash, RRS/Baek/Lehr/Dickey
is a solid rotation. Felix + the rest, isn't really.
You like the 1+4 rotation? It does get results, and we went with it in '07. Other teams have won WS with it, but we don't have Pujols.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh....
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Since when are we in a position
The Mariners need to improve their run differential while making sure they don't sacrifice necessary pieces of the future. It's that simple. Erik Bedard accomplishes the first part, but deals tremendous damage to the second.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bedard will help DURING the season also.
Both lines of thinking require MORE moves to happen for us to be better. Which are easier acquire? OF or pitchers.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Run differential, yep.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is what people keep forgetting
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
another piece people forget about our RA
Also, I wouldn't see AJ as an improvement over Guillens numbers. It would be good to expect the same for cheaper, at least in '08-09. 'Expecting' more than Guillen's numbers is prospect overvaluing by a tad.
Which area are we going to patch this offseason through FA? Pitching or Outfield?
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And the Angels had Colon/Santana
Jones will be better, overall, than Guillen. Offense isn't the only thing a player contributes.
Free agency isn't the only way to adjust a roster, but given the current market, I'd much rather bring in the bargain FA arms than try to find a suitable RF (assuming Jenkins goes to Philly or SD).
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an or question
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody needs a #1
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but those take creativity.
I understand that bedard will not carry us to the postseason, but 1 + 4 rotation will keep us from winning once we get there. It CAN be done. The m's need another frontline starter to compete in the playoffs, if they were ever to be made.
Other teams have more than 1 good pitcher.
It works either way. Keep Jones, add 2 FA reclamation projects pitchers. Hope offense/defense can carry the team. Lose Jones, get Bedard. Add 1 FA reclamation project pitcher, plus 2 FA OF's. Its about the same for 2 years. Still forced to rely on FA's to fill holes.
SO we have add Loshe, Silva and keep Jones or Add Bedard, Jenkins, Stewart.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
This is not true. There are many many ways to win.
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rockies say hello.
by JI on Dec 17, 2007 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
along with Chicago, Detroit, Arizona, Mets
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals did have Carpetner
by JI on Dec 17, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Arizona!
Look, I said it COULD be done, but are you going to argue against 'better teams have better rotations'?
It takes alot of team work to win a game, but you can't win if Jeff Weaver/FA reclam gives up 7 runs by the 3rd.
1+4 does work, just not in the AL.
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The White Sox did it
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2007 Arizona had neither.
Outscoring your opponents works everywhere. Doesn't matter how you do it.
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude....
Other teams have done it without two "aces." Other teams have had two aces and have not won anything.
I think you (and possibly the team) is getting hypnotized by the thought of two hot arms at the top of the rotation and are forgetting the needs (CURRENT!) on the field and at the plate.
by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cardinals can win it all
Adding Lohse/Silva would be a different kind of disaster. We'd be tied into both of those guys through at least 2011.
Jenkins isn't going to sign here.
Do people realize that Jones is going to cost about $1m combined over the next three years? That's a huge advantage.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It helps that the Mets rotation
by JI on Dec 17, 2007 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure we can say
His bat though, I got no questions about. The guy's a hitter through and through, and it likely won't take him long in the Majors to show us that.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good comment.
Jones/Morrow are auto-ins for a Bedard trade. The rest of the package is what I am interested in.
Add Sherrill and Tui. Done.
O's get #1 fielder and pitching spects we have, PLUS MLB lefty and IF spect they want.
Is that too much? Should we stop after Sherrill?
Who are the throwins? They want IF spects, do we include TRUI?
Jones and Trui straightup for Bedard?
by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Daily Blog List
by SeattleIAM on Dec 17, 2007 2:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Dude, you didn't give me props for my article
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that's good nooz?
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I love teh interwebs
WEEEE ARRRE THE WORRRRRLLLLD
WEEEE ARRRE THE CHILLLLLLDREN
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We globalize via the web.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not spam like this anymore
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever Jeff
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to re-rail
by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, when making a good team
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Better to make the playoffs and
by drm1125 on Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They were all better than us.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Streaky is as streaky does
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As I recall
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, Bedard is a Canadian.
Although Jones is from San Diego.....
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
better than last seasons Canadian
by MFAN on Dec 17, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
IS HE FRENCH-CANADIAN??!!
by Phildopip on Dec 17, 2007 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's from Vancouver BC.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you missed the joke...
by Phildopip on Dec 17, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ed McMahon says:
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing you still have yesterday's pants.
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I always keep one extra pair in the car,
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Erik Bedard is from Ontario
Adam Loewen's the local canuck on the Orioles.
by marc w on Dec 17, 2007 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just read BC yesterday...
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How bad exactly
Wlad's offense from last year was as good in alot of ways as Jones'... so that should be a fairly similar transition.
Wlad actually was better on the basepaths then Jones....
Both have extremely strong arms. Both have played all 3 outfield positions in the minors, so while Jones' is projected to be a gold glove calibur, I can't imagine that Wlad wouldn't be an improvement upon both Raul and and Guillen defensively.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 3:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think...
And I still think Jones' game (more line drives) is better suited to Safeco than Wlad.
by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know
as for Jones' offense .. his linedrives may be a plus... but Wlad's batting eye and ability to take a walk is a plus in his favor.
The question that I have is... would the M's be better off with Felix, Bedard, Washburn, Batista, and PTBL and Wlad vs. Felix, a reclamation project, Washburn, Batista, and PTBL and Jones.
Maybe that's just a dumb question because I know how big of Jones' fans the majority of this board is.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly the same thing:
Reading a pitcher to get a good jump to steal a base, and getting a good jump on a fly ball are very different skills. Trying to link one (base stealing) to the other (defensive range) is really a stretch.
Granted, the players speed has something to do with both skills, but look at Willie. Pretty good base stealer, horrible outfielder. So explain to me how WFB can be so effective stealing bases with his great reactions and foot speed, but so bad in the OF with the same skills.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry
You got me there... I've got no evidence to prove otherwise.
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay. How about the all time stolen base king?
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
Not saying this has anything to do with a Balentien/Jones comparison, but I thought it should be mentioned.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The only correllation between the two is
But trying to compare getting a jump on a fly ball, or taking a good route to getting a good jump stealing a base is a huuuuuuuuge stretch.
by Thingray on Dec 18, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He actually won a GG.
by JI on Dec 17, 2007 8:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So has Jeter.
by Thingray on Dec 18, 2007 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Ms need to add another OF
by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jones is a lot faster
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That happened to one of my ex-GF too.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn those prepubescent youth!
by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Over Raul/Guillen last year
Leaving aside the matter of offense for a moment, I've heard Wlad talked about as being anything from below-average to slightly above-average in a corner, while Jones has been talked about as a fringe GG center fielder. So if you put them in right, you probably have something like this:
Wlad: -5 < x < +5
Jones: +10 < x < +20
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO,
Wlad is more conservative on the basepaths, so maybe that is why he appears to be "better" than AJ. I don't have any problems with AJ getting thrown out learning how to steal in AAA. Wlad really isn't a threat on the basepaths as far as I know (although AJ is more "1st to 3rd" fast then "base stealing" fast at this point).
AJ has a much better arm that Wlad, not that Wlad's arm sucks, but I wouldn't say it was "extremely strong".
I think the only real advantage Wlad has over AJ is his sheer HR power (he can hit it a mile), although they stayed neck and neck in HR's in Tacoma last year.
by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hrm
Defensively, Jones wins hands down -- and he's still learning. Wlad probably would be an improvement over Raul and Guillen, but then again so would a tortoise.
by manifestus on Dec 17, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have we missed Jones's OPS being .100 higher?
by Graham on Dec 17, 2007 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No More
by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just my two cents...
by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 8:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Just for fun I kinda looked
I also just guessed at what our lineup would look like next year by just fudging the numbers around a little for each player. I kept Ibanez in LF and stuck Jones in RF. Doing that plus adding a little regression (good or bad) across the board I came up with a lineup that was 15 runs above average offensively and 5 runs above average defensively which makes for a 25 run total improvement.
Just guessing but our SP will probably be a little better (it can't get much worse right...) and our bullpen probably will lose a little which will kinda cancel out. Applying the +25 run improvement gives us about a +5 run differential. Just like last season...looks like we'll be a .500 ballclub.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
A kinda random question
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Not the least of which because you want him
by CapSea on Dec 18, 2007 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trading AJ for Bedard
I guess you were right, as good as bedard is, he isn't worth (in RS/RA) the package being offered.
by Montucky on Dec 18, 2007 10:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm coming around, too.
Hell, I'd rather have Jeremy friggin' Reed out in LF than Raul Ibanez...
by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
by Montucky on Dec 18, 2007 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Reed is not a great OF
by Matthew on Dec 18, 2007 1:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right again
by Montucky on Dec 18, 2007 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly, of course...
by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you ever find out what the 'murky' reason was?
by CapSea on Dec 18, 2007 1:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Bedard
(a) M's get a long-term extension worked out for Bedard in advance. Yes, he is worth it.
(b) M's manage to hang on to either Morrow or Jones (one will have to go.)
If they can work out a Bedard deal with those two things included, it really MUST be done, and it could make for a stronger team for the next five years, not just two.
by scoutingbook on Dec 19, 2007 12:11 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

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