Compare & Contrast

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 3:58 PM PST in Seattle Mariners News, Regular

Shortstop X:

11.4 RARP per 150 games
23.7 RARP per 150 games
23.1 RARP per 150 games

Defense: 0 < x < +5

Shortstop Y:

4.1 RARP per 150 games
-1.6 RARP per 150 games
-8.4 RARP per 150 games (shortened by injury)

Defense: +25 < y < +35

One of these players was recently half of a one-for-one trade, dealt in exchange for a 28 year old innings eater with an above-average ERA. The other player is probably going to be non-tendered tonight, as his team has made a move for someone more popular.

Way too many executives in the game today just have no idea how to evaluate the importance of defense.

Tweet Comment 89 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Sign Adam Everett please

Although you just know Beane will jump all over this one.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 3:59 PM PST reply actions

We don't have any use for him

they aren't going to trade Betancourt and I don't think there's any way you ask one of Yuni or Everett to change positions.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 4:01 PM PST up reply actions

Betancourt is brilliant at second too

FWIW

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions

Now a different perspective

Do you think a general manager who's comfortable with a -20 glove in left field really understands what Adam Everett is all about?

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions

Can't you at least wait until 5pm

to depress me? At least then I can start drinking.

by Matthew on Dec 12, 2007 4:07 PM PST up reply actions

It's midnight over here

And I have gin

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 4:10 PM PST up reply actions

IT'S COLLLLLD GIN TIIIIIME AGAIN

and you know it'll always win.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 12, 2007 4:13 PM PST up reply actions

tanqueray or bombay?

maybe you're a beefeaters guy?

"back in the day, Reggie Jackson would have called that a 'tits high' pitch" - Dave Henderson
the log

by OlyOle on Dec 12, 2007 4:15 PM PST up reply actions

I favour Bombay

But what I normally end up with is Gordon's

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 4:16 PM PST up reply actions

Gordon's?

Why would you do that to yourself? Gin tastes bad enough as it is.

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Dec 12, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions

agree

gin = gross
tonic = gross
gin + tonic = somehow worse than the sum of their parts.

by Matthew on Dec 12, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions

Gin + Koolaid is even grosser

Don't ask how I know that.

by chrisisasavage on Dec 12, 2007 4:26 PM PST up reply actions

i dunno

grape koolaide and gin aint that bad

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.

by wadswerth on Dec 12, 2007 4:31 PM PST up reply actions

you know what's awesome?

vodka + tang

by Matthew on Dec 12, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions

IIRC, it was lime koolaide we used.

by chrisisasavage on Dec 12, 2007 4:35 PM PST up reply actions

You're doing it wrong

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Dec 12, 2007 4:35 PM PST up reply actions

That's what she said

by chrisisasavage on Dec 12, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions

It's buried somewhere in the woods

like all abomination Frankenstein hybrids should be

by chrisisasavage on Dec 12, 2007 4:38 PM PST up reply actions

Only gin

I enjoyed was when we took a cooler and filled it with gin, ice and freshly squeezed lemons. Though when I think about it, it may just have tasted good because we were outside in Oak Harbor and it was about 94 degrees out.

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Dec 12, 2007 4:40 PM PST up reply actions

Because that's the only gin Sidney bar has

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 4:22 PM PST up reply actions

Don't they make fish sticks?

That's an odd combo of products.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 12, 2007 4:22 PM PST up reply actions

No kidding

Why would you drink a gin made by a fisherman with a yellow rain slick and a beard? No wonder why it tastes like ass.

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Dec 12, 2007 4:25 PM PST up reply actions

Exactly.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 12, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions

You ever try this?

I know you're in england and all, but you're around from time to time:

It's made by Rogue brewery.
Not bad, but not dry at all.

Some of my favorites:
Old Raj
Sapphire
Hendrick's (what's with the scots and great gin?)
Plymouth (good value)
Tanqueray Ten
Junipero
No. 209 (seriously dry)

Gin is awesome. So freaking delicious.

by marc w on Dec 13, 2007 11:28 AM PST up reply actions

I only turned 21

A few weeks before going back to school, so I didn't really get much chance to do much drinking in the US apart from checking out some of the local beers.

Cheers for the recommendations though, will keep a lookout.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 13, 2007 11:33 AM PST up reply actions

Or Hendricks?

best. gin. ever.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 12, 2007 4:16 PM PST up reply actions

Boodles is pretty good

though I think I like Hendricks better. Like Graham, I usually end up with Gordon's which is pretty good.

And you haven't lived until you've tried Gin and Diet Mountain Dew. Sounds nasty, but is actually very pleasant.

by jtopps on Dec 13, 2007 9:14 AM PST up reply actions

Seriously

Diet Mt. Dew. Specifically the diet?

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 13, 2007 9:47 AM PST up reply actions

well you can go regular

but for the amount of it I drink, the diet's the way to go. Plus it doesn't have that weird sugar-film that regular MDew has.

by jtopps on Dec 13, 2007 2:07 PM PST up reply actions

Beltre at third, Everett at SS, Yuni at second

I think I just came.

Yesterday's Pants

by Katal LM on Dec 12, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions

You might want to use yesterdays pants then.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 12, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions

God I hate you.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 12, 2007 4:13 PM PST up reply actions

Good thing you still have yesterday's pants.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah...

but thier collective OBP would be like .250!

Oh if only defense could score runs like in football!

Go M's

by OBF on Dec 12, 2007 4:40 PM PST up reply actions

The worst part is

that I'm sure Everett is going to a much smarter, and therefore better, team.

Yesterday's Pants

by Katal LM on Dec 12, 2007 4:06 PM PST up reply actions

is Orlando Cabrera the other player??

LET WLAD BAT!!!!

by MFAN on Dec 12, 2007 4:14 PM PST reply actions

uh huh

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 4:15 PM PST up reply actions

Adam Everett

I could just imagine him in the lineup everyday posting around a .600 ops in Safeco field. This would be a fun board to read during his at-bats. heh

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 12, 2007 4:34 PM PST reply actions

It's not this place you should worry about

imagine the ESPN board. :|

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions

The ESPN board

at least had language filters for most people....

its amazing how the value of players has changed since those days though.. what is valuable and what's not... and all the new stats that have come out to show things in a different light... I can't keep up with what's valuable and what is not anymore.

Back in those days everyone was drooling over Texas' all out offense...

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 12, 2007 4:41 PM PST up reply actions

Here's the easy way to put it

what's valuable (for position players) is producing runs. There are lots of ways to do this, the main ones being:

Average (Ichiro)
Patience (Swisher)
Power (Howard)
Defense (Everett)

We've gotten pretty good at measuring all four. The best players will combine some or all of those.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 4:58 PM PST up reply actions

Here in likes the rub

defense, by defintion DOES NOT rpoduce runs. It reduces runs against, it prevents runs, but can and never will produce runs. At some point some one on your team needs to be able to score. Other wise you will lose.

Yes defense is very important, butthis most recent swing toward defense is super duper , more important than offense mentality is a little much.

These two player:
A: Offense = +20 runs Defense = -20
B: Offense = -20 runs Defense = +20

Are NOT the same

A is more valuable than B.

Go M's

by OBF on Dec 12, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions

Not RE:Winning.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 5:10 PM PST up reply actions

No he's not

a run is a run.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 5:11 PM PST up reply actions

I should amend this

a team full of +20 D/-20 O players would do worse than a team full of +20 O/-20 D players, but that's only because of overlap. On an individual player basis, they're the same.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 5:20 PM PST up reply actions

You do need a mix of both types.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 12, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions

It's not like a team's going to score/concede

0 runs a game anyway. Most of our baseball assumptions break down in extreme scoring sitatuions.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 5:22 PM PST up reply actions

Wouldn't it depend on the team's run differential?

At least by the Pythagorean theorem, if a team scores more runs than gives up, a player who adds 20 runs on offense and 20 on defense would decrease winning percentage, while one who subtracts 20 on offense and 20 on defense would increase it. The situation would be reversed for a team with a negative run differential. It's even if there is no run differential.

by bkappe on Dec 13, 2007 9:11 PM PST up reply actions

A -run is worth like 0.9995 a +run

by Graham MacAree on Dec 12, 2007 5:18 PM PST up reply actions

Everett pops up as much as, if not more often,

than Lopez. We'd go batshit watching that.

by Matthew on Dec 12, 2007 4:43 PM PST up reply actions

Besides

I don't know if we can handle that much white grit on one baseball team.

"You guys should be in every major city. This is some heavy shit. This is, like, Lone Ranger heavy, man."

by AZSEAfan on Dec 12, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions

In other news:

Dallas McPherson just got non tendered.

Remember when he was suppose to be the Angels perennial 40 homer a year 3B? whoops.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Dec 12, 2007 5:46 PM PST reply actions

You mispelled "signed by the Mariners"

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 5:47 PM PST up reply actions

The misspelled joke is over

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 5:50 PM PST up reply actions

Fine, fine, fine.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 7:41 PM PST up reply actions

n/s

I think I'll make it my mission to overuse LL memes to keep you all on your toes. I killed TWSS and now Misspelled.... That's 2 down.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 8:23 PM PST up reply actions

Are you sure about that

Cause not wanting memes is wrong.

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Dec 12, 2007 8:28 PM PST up reply actions

Ironic

You misspelled misspelled.

by Patrick517 on Dec 12, 2007 5:50 PM PST up reply actions

I saw.

Then I decided I was proud of it.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 12, 2007 7:44 PM PST up reply actions

Where did you hear this?

Not doubting you, I just can't find anything on it.

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Dec 12, 2007 6:26 PM PST up reply actions

Rotoworld

Always Rotoworld.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 6:28 PM PST up reply actions

Also on Yahoo under MLB/news

by Ben in Va on Dec 12, 2007 6:55 PM PST up reply actions

According to wikipedia:

"Dallas Lyle McPherson (born July 23, 1980 in Greensboro, North Carolina) is a Major League Baseball third baseman who is currently a third baseman."

Haha

by redwolf75 on Dec 12, 2007 7:18 PM PST up reply actions

It's official

The Astros have non-tendered Everett

by Teej on Dec 12, 2007 6:03 PM PST reply actions

Dumb

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 6:04 PM PST up reply actions

I used to think defense didn't matter that much...

by Teej on Dec 12, 2007 6:07 PM PST up reply actions

Astros and Giants in a battle of the minds

Lets hope Bavasi doesn't make it a menage-a-trois.

by Ben in Va on Dec 12, 2007 6:18 PM PST up reply actions

Now what if the O's

picked up Adam Everett off waivers to play shortstop. That would make me laugh inside. I don't know why they wouldn't have just taken him in the trade but it would be funny to see.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 12, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions

They absolutely should

I hope the Angels don't.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 6:25 PM PST up reply actions

The O's should be right near the top

of the waiver priority list, right? Or do all NL teams get a crack first?

by Teej on Dec 12, 2007 6:31 PM PST up reply actions

I think it just goes by record now

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions

For what it's worth

(and I didn't even consider this yesterday), it appears there are no waivers or anything. If you're non-tendered, you're a free agent. Here's what Cot's has:

If a club has no interest in keeping a particular player, the club may choose to non-tender him, or to not offer him a contract. A player generally becomes a candidate to be non-tendered when he is arbitration-eligible and his club determines he is not worth the salary he might command in arbitration. A player who is non-tendered becomes a free agent and may sign with any of the 30 Major League clubs, including his former team, at any price.

by Teej on Dec 13, 2007 7:16 PM PST up reply actions

I knew that

Blonde moment.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 13, 2007 7:27 PM PST up reply actions

Me too

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 14, 2007 1:24 PM PST up reply actions

I hope we do what I did in MVP baseball

and sign him as our super utility infielder and kick WFB to the curb.

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 12, 2007 7:28 PM PST up reply actions

by Nick S on Dec 12, 2007 7:36 PM PST up reply actions

I don't see why not

but I expect Prior to command so much attention that he ceases to be a potential bargain and becomes another broken-down arm with a multi-million dollar contract.

No harm in placing a call, though.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 12, 2007 7:38 PM PST up reply actions