Community Projection: Raul Ibanez
The sixth in a non-alphabetical and irregularly updated series of review pieces for each of the players we predicted last winter. (All entries are linked in the left-hand sidebar, below the Rotoworld stuff and the interviews.)
LL/USSM Community: 572 AB's, .280/.350/.464 (n=136)
Actual Line: 573 AB's, .291/.351/.480
Closest Projection: darrylzero, .285/.351/.478
If a projection is basically right on, but the player achieves those numbers in an unexpected fashion, is it really correct?
Raul Ibanez and the saga in left field was far and away the most popular storyline of the season. Many people were perfectly content to begin the year with Raul in left and Adam Jones honing his game in AAA, but when Raul struggled out of the gate and AJ proved he was too good for PCL pitching, the tide of public opinion began to turn the other way. Things reached a fever pitch in July, at which point Jones was Biblically laying with the minor leagues while Raul batted .184 with zero power for the month. Clearly, we said, there needs to be a change. Raul, we said, appears finished, and AJ would provide an instant, substantial upgrade. To refuse to make such an obvious move, we said, was to sacrifice a critical game or two in the standings down the stretch.
I guess Raul Ibanez took offense to all this, or something.
Raul through August 5th: .253/.310/.387, 6 homers
Raul after August 5th: .363/.425/.652, 15 homers
Among players with at least 50 plate appearances in each month, Raul had the tenth-best OPS in the league in August and the 40th-best in September (that's out of 291). For a few spurts in there he was carrying this offense, and even managed to be one of the few members of the lineup who actually hit a little bit during that morale-crushing slump. For all the talk about experience and veterans and rookies and chemistry and defense, Raul rendered everything moot by completely flipping out for the final eight weeks. Not that the arguments for AJ were bad ones, mind you - I should know, I made a lot of them - but in this particular case, they didn't matter in the end. Jones didn't have a prayer of matching Raul's production.
With this in mind, if there's one thing the Mariners should've learned from their Raul and Richie experiences this season, it's that, if a player is hurt, it does you no good to let him try and play through it. It came out later in the summer that Raul, for a while, had been dealing with a shoulder issue that first bit him while checking a swing in ST. This shoulder problem caused him discomfort and forced him to alter his mechanics, thus sapping him of a lot of his power and making him pretty useless. The organization was aware of this. He also then ran into a hamstring deal that further delayed his return to being a productive hitter. How much these complications actually hindered him, we'll never be sure, but if the Mariners are quick to explain away Raul's struggles by pointing to his injuries, then they should've also been quick to put him on the DL and let him heal up so he could get back to 100%. Letting a player work through an injury, let alone praising him for his determination in doing so, is one of the stupidest parts of the game. It. Doesn't. Help. Anyone.
Anyway, the tremendous push down the stretch helped Raul put up a set of final numbers that looks remarkably similar to the ones that he's been posting for the better part of the past decade. He may have taken an unorthodox path to his .831 OPS, but he got there, once again showing us where to shove our warnings concerning his age. I can keep reminding you that Raul is 35 and not getting any younger, but after what he just did, I don't really have any more reason to tell you that he's about to drop off the map than I did in 2004, or in 2005, or in 2006, or in 2007. It's weird; when he finally does succumb, I don't think any of us will be particularly surprised, but it'll still be unexpected, if that makes any sense. Such is the burden of following players reluctant to acknowledge their birth dates.
For all the talk about Ibanez's resurgent offense, though, he did start to show his age in another area. Defense. Yeah. I feel like I don't even need to write this part of the post since we've been complaining about it for months, but holy crap is Raul Ibanez ever bad in left field. His THT zone rating ranked third-worst in baseball, even coming in behind Adam flipping Dunn, and UZR agreed, putting his -30 runs (-30 runs!) ahead of only Manny Ramirez's -33 and Pat Burrell's -34. This isn't one of those things where the numbers differ from visual observation, either - any idiot who watched a Mariner game last summer could tell that way more balls were dropping in left field than usual. Watching Raul Ibanez play the field is so painfully unfunny that it's almost funny, and how Jarrod Washburn hasn't yet chopped him up and fed him to birds remains a mystery to me.
If you can believe it, Raul's defense was arguably bad enough to leave him as little more than a replacement-level left fielder, overall. A replacement-level left fielder will have something resembling replacement-level offense and league-average defense. According to Baseball Prospectus' Runs Above Replacement Player statistic, Raul was about +30 runs at the plate last season. UZR says he was -30 runs in the field. Even if you consider that way too extreme to be real, -20 works as a compromise (seriously, he was really really bad), and then you're talking about Raul being about one win better on the season as a whole than someone like Jason Ellison or Jeremy Reed. If you've ever wondered how bad of a fielder someone has to be to cancel out an .831 OPS, 2007 Raul Ibanez is your answer.
The fact that Raul was injured for the first half or so makes this a little less meaningful in a retrospective sense, and it doesn't do us that much good to bitch about it considering Raul started hitting like a crazy person soon after the calls for AJ really began in earnest, but this can't be ignored going forward. Even if Raul stays consistently productive at the plate, that doesn't mean he isn't slipping in the field, and he's clearly taken a gigantic step back from where he was a few years ago. At this point, Raul Ibanez is a left fielder in name only. The only offseason Mariner plans worth pursuing are those that involve moving Raul somewhere less conspicuous.
It's not that I don't think Raul can contribute in 2008. It's not that at all. It's just that he stands a much, much greater chance of being an asset at first base or DH, where he isn't actively crippling a pitching staff that needs all the help it can get. As a left-handed DH who sits a lot of the time when there's a southpaw on the mound, Raul Ibanez can be a big help. As a spasming corpse in left field, he can't, or at least not anywhere close to the same extent.
One problem we have is that the Seattle Mariners, in their current incarnation, don't have a clue when it comes to assessing the significance of individual glovework. They'd probably be quite content to lose Guillen, shift AJ into right, and leave the rest of the unit as it is. However, since early November should be a time for warm fuzzies, I'm going to go ahead and try to give them the benefit of the doubt here and assume that even they understand how bad Raul's defense really is. And hey, Geoff Jenkins is a veteran local free agent who provides left-handed sock. Take the bait guys. Please. If ever there were a good time to live up to your stereotype, this is it.
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133 comments
Comments
We felt your pain Raul
by zugzwang on Nov 8, 2007 9:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
So, how well does Jenkins
by Coach Owens on Nov 8, 2007 9:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
His RZR was 15th
by Mariner John on Nov 8, 2007 10:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He'd be a good DH.
by JI on Nov 8, 2007 9:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Personally...
Finally living up to stathead predictions isn't an injury...
by Gromky on Nov 8, 2007 11:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I believe it
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 12:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't really complain about that final line
I buy the injury thing, I do. It makes perfect sense - his shoulder felt bad, so he had to alter his swing and couldn't hit for power, then he went all hulk hogan for a short stretch, then his hammy got hurt and he couldn't finish his swing...
It makes perfect sense, yeah. And maybe that means we can expect a 300/360/500 or more from him next year, when he's presumably healthy and maybe not running as much in the field. But it fits the Sexson pattern well too. And that scares me. In any case, as long as he doesn't deck his wife i think we're stuck with him for the duration of the season, so I'm rooting for the guy to go all Torii Hunter on us.
by Mere Tantalisers on Nov 9, 2007 6:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'll take the more realistic approach.
by Double06 on Nov 9, 2007 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And another thing!
by Safeco Hobo on Nov 9, 2007 7:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
November is a time for warm fuzzies...
by Patrick517 on Nov 9, 2007 7:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I used to be a Raul fan, but ...
by Sec 108 on Nov 9, 2007 7:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think
by Man From Nantucket on Nov 9, 2007 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Injured an all
IMHO, Ibañez was more valuable than Beltré during 2007, but that's just my opinion.
by Pirata Morado on Nov 9, 2007 10:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
An opinion can't really be wrong.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
My opinion that Scott Spiezio's clubhouse leadership would help the M's tremendously in 2004, and that he was the biggest M's acquisition that offseason was terribly, utterly wrong.
by PositivePaul on Nov 9, 2007 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's probably semantics really.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was my point, although it doesn't
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No you weren't
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Them's fightin...uh...
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look closer,
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
At what point during the ENTIRE first 2/3 of the season was Ibanez more valuable than Beltre? Raul caught fire late, sure, and hauled his numbers to a point where they aren't too embarrassing, but up until then he was called "spasming corpse" for a reason.
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right spirit, wrong pinata
by johnbai on Nov 9, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The only correct part of this
by Slozbury Stouvre on Nov 9, 2007 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He types like Jon Miller speaks
by Mariner John on Nov 10, 2007 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Ibanez becomes DH or 1B
However, if he ends up in the field again, then he moves from being a valuable player to a complete waste of space.
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 11:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Many people get angry...
Just look at this, and pick one:
.291 / .351 / .480 / .831 vs.
.276 / .319 / .482 / .801
That's 30 points higher in OPS, and people still get angry!
by Pirata Morado on Nov 9, 2007 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem for me is...
IMHO, Ibañez was more valuable than Beltré during 2007, but that's just my opinion.
During a substantial portion of 2007, Ibanez was more valuable than, say, a dead cat, but certainly not more valuable than Beltre. Had you said "Ibanez was more valuable than Beltre in August and September" I don't think you'd find such violent opposition.
Look at it this way. At the beginning of the season, had someone told you that the M's would finish the year at 88-74 and been in the pennant race for a while, you would have been pretty excited; as it was, though, that record feels incredibly disappointing, because of how the team got there.
Ibanez is the same - his end-of-year numbers look fine, but the brutal way in which he got there means that he was far, far away from being as valuable as Beltre over the entire season.
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But Ibanez's defense was terrible
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Run Difference
The difference between Beltre's defense and Ibanez's defense is on the order of 30 to 40 runs.
Beltre is good, Ibanez is not.
by davidcameron on Nov 9, 2007 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You are ignoring
by Pirata Morado on Nov 9, 2007 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BURN THE TREE!!!!
by Matthew on Nov 9, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My grandma could get RBI's hitting in the
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No I'm not
by davidcameron on Nov 9, 2007 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pfffffft.
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
stupid time zones
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depending on where he is,
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's in England
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been drinking for 3 hours now.
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're kidding, right?
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's been a bottle and a half of wine
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What does being half Chinese
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My alcohol processing gene barely exists
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a Chinese thing?
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's frustrating
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Spot on.
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The amazing thing to me
Me, on the other hand, I can make a grilled cheese sandwich, and nachos, and maybe canned soup. Genes are stupid.
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, my brother just gave himself food poisoning
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Worst. Suicide Attempt. Ever.
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As you should
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Half Irish here too. The food sucks.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't ask me
Gin is the only thing I can consume in bulk without getting ill.
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And yes, I know I've been consuming wine in bulk
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cambridge formal drinking rules
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But her body being 3 degrees warmer had its advantages...
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm missing something here....
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Chinese people/women
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That I get, what I'm confused about
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Sex is Awesome.
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So nail your GF when she has a fever?
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a fever
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Although I didn't realize you could read it like
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you're not sweating, you're doing it wrong
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't?
Well, have you seen how they make personal lubricants that "warm on contact?" Assume that's because people enjoy the sex more. Otherwise, I don't know how to explain why.
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is uncomfortable.
Warm is better than sex in a freezer, yes. But I just don't see the big deal.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you take the same warmth
Warm is better than sex in a freezer, yes.
Okay, so warmer than that could be even better, yeah?
Seriously, I don't really know how to explain it, so you may as well give up trying to understand it.
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If some is good
- Eddie Spaghetti, The Supersuckers.
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know enough not to scratch my nuts
Other than that, I guess I see your point, it's just that "heat" is not the first sensation I'm after.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And here I was thinking she needed cowbell...
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You callin' my GF a cow?
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're excused then.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm.
by PositivePaul on Nov 9, 2007 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But well, that's my opinion
by Pirata Morado on Nov 9, 2007 11:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wish there were more people like you
by zugzwang on Nov 9, 2007 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beltre was the better hitter anyway
by JI on Nov 9, 2007 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's another opinion
by G_ on Nov 9, 2007 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyway....
by PositivePaul on Nov 9, 2007 12:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
My opinion
by InSpokane on Nov 9, 2007 2:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's hilarious how off topic this place gets.
by Goose on Nov 9, 2007 3:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's why I love this place
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
unicorns do provide more bang for the buck than
by Matthew on Nov 9, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Meatloaf is a replacement level meal
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But it's the best loaf
Spam loaf? nope.
Pimiento loaf? Not really food.
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You were supposed to be Brett
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not that meta
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My weekend started 11 hours ago
by Graham on Nov 9, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bastard
by pdb on Nov 9, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still an hour away. Damn.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't knock my boy Hayden!! >:(
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Nov 10, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Loaf of bread?
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
At least I feel more comfortable discussing
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer meatloaf unicorns myself.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie! Charlie!
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Where's that confounded bridge?
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it's over there!
by Matthew on Nov 9, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bretticus does a good job
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're not kidding.
by Jeff on Nov 9, 2007 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Genital warts
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In other words, we'd all talk about nothing
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it went astray about the time
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Ironically, his patch is on one side
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His "eye" is dead-center.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's always such a delicate balance.
by Jeff on Nov 9, 2007 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's half the fun though.
by Thingray on Nov 9, 2007 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All I'll say is
by Jeff on Nov 9, 2007 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's worse though
Do you want to see a diary poll about whether sex is better if one partner has a fever?
You know, buried in this heap of interaction is a killer dissertation on the benefits and pitfalls of web-based communication as a social gathering place.
by Matthew on Nov 9, 2007 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take that one on.
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And it's not a fever.
by Librocrat on Nov 9, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My theory is that after a season of bitching
by Matthew on Nov 9, 2007 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm talking 'bout Raul
He likes playing the field, and you have to give him credit for playing hard and giving it his all. I believe that he will do better at the plate when he is challenged in the field. Shifting him to 1st just seems the right move for so many reasons.
by theclaw on Nov 9, 2007 11:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your final statement
by Librocrat on Nov 10, 2007 12:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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