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Hiroki Kuroda

You may have missed it, especially in light of this weirdass Torii Hunter news, but the Mariners have an offseason all their own as well, and they're starting to get to work. As such, they're currently evaluating the guys on the roster and identifying players outside the organization who look like they'd be able to come in and plug a hole. They're not making much noise, but they're not exactly laying out by the pool.

The front office's strategy appears to be sliding Jones into right to replace Guillen and signing a fourth starter, leaving one final rotation slot for an in-house candidate. We can argue all we want about whether or not that's the best course of action (it's not), but that's what they seem to be doing, so we might as well get used to it.

Who's going to be that fourth starter, you ask? The name on everyone's tongue right now is Hiroki Kuroda, a soon-to-be 33 year old Japanese import. He's a free agent, so there's no posting process, and the Mariners have already flown their expensive suits across the Pacific to chill with the guy. He's the organization's top target, and between his desire to play on the West Coast and the team's inherent advantages of having Johjima and Ichiro and a willingness to spend all willy-nilly, odds are good that we already know the identity of our big winter acquisition. Honestly, at this point I'd be surprised if he signed somewhere else.

With that in mind, I feel like I should state my opinion of Kuroda. The few times he's come up so far I've expressed a little skepticism, and I ought to clarify why that is, because otherwise it doesn't mean much.

I see Kuroda as a back-of-the-rotation starter who's going to get something close to Washburn money. The kind of guy who improves your team but costs you two or three times what he should. I'm all about making the Mariners better, and if this is indeed where he lands then I'll be rooting for him to look like a solid investment, but with equivalent or superior pitchers out there who wouldn't require as large a commitment, it isn't a move that I'd make. You're supposed to overpay your stars, not your filler.

I'll be honest - never having watched Kuroda pitch, I can't really offer any unique insight into the quality of his repertoire. However, the Internet is magic, and Jason over at Prospect Insider recently offered a bit of a scouting report. Fueled by that and a few other articles, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly impressive about Kuroda's arsenal. The splitter sounds nice, and could be used as a putaway pitch a lot like Kaz Sasaki's, but the fastball and slider are average, and he doesn't have a good offspeed pitch that he can throw for strikes to keep lefties off balance. The whole package isn't bad or anything, but it's not exactly mindblowing either, and there's reason to be concerned with whether or not the fastball will make a good translation into a more talented league.

That's the scouting angle (also worth mentioning is that, no, Kuroda doesn't have a quirky hitch in his delivery that makes him more deceptive). Here are the numbers. Kuroda's no spring chicken, but he's had some strong seasons in Japan, most notably the 2006 campaign that saw him post a 1.85 ERA with a K/uBB ratio over 8. That level of success was out of character with the rest of his career, though, and he regressed to a 3.56 ERA and 3.2 K/uBB in 2007. (He did have some elbow discomfort, but it was nothing.) Still, looking over the entire track record, he's been a good pitcher, and he's excelled first and foremost because he just doesn't issue many walks. Hiroki Kuroda throws strikes.

But there's a funny thing about that. Daisuke Matsuzaka and Kei Igawa threw strikes in Japan too, and they saw their walk rates fly north after making the switch. Of the six big starting pitchers who made the transition from Japan to the US (Matsuzaka, Nomo, Yoshii, Ishii, Igawa, Irabu), five of them wound up walking more batters, with Nomo standing as the lone exception, presumably because his delivery was so fucking weird. It would appear that Kuroda's due for a bit of a hike in free passes.

That's relatively minor when compared to the home run phenomenon, though. Overall, those same six starting pitchers saw their HR/9 rates nearly double after coming over. Matsuzaka went from 0.63 to 1.10. Yoshii went from 0.77 to 1.15. Ishii went from 0.93 to 1.17. Igawa went from 0.73 to 1.99. And Irabu went from 0.40 to 2.53 (in his admittedly limited rookie season). Again, Nomo is the only exception (0.71 to 0.66), but also again, I'm comfortable with calling that a byproduct of his crazy throwing motion. As batters became more familiar with it, they hit him a lot better.

Unless they throw funny, Japanese imports just haven't had anywhere close to the same success keeping the ball in the park in the US as they did back home. Kuroda allowed 20 in 179.2 innings in 2007, and even when you consider that Hiroshima's a small ballpark and that Safeco isn't, homers are a legitimate concern going forward. He's going to allow more. It's only a question of how many.

The good news for Kuroda is that, while his walk and home run rates will almost certainly rise, there's no statistical reason to believe that his strikeouts will drop that far, as they've remained pretty stable for the other guys. There's obviously the scouting concern that his fastball may not work as well here as back home, but based on 55% reason and 45% gut, I'm fairly confident that he can keep himself around a 5.8-6.2 K/9. Batista level, perhaps. So that should keep him from falling apart. Unless I'm totally wrong.

Add it all up. If you're an optimist, you'll see a #4 who looks like a #3 when he's dealing. If you're a pessimist, you'll see Kyle Lohse. The biggest factor is going to be the home run rate, and how well Kuroda's able to keep it under control. And that'll probably come down to how confident he is putting his repertoire over the plate after two or three guys take him deep. There's some definite upside here, but it's pretty limited, and I think when it's all said and done Kuroda's going to end up a 4.5-5.0 FIP starting pitcher. Decent arm to have in the rotation? Yeah. Worth what Kuroda's asking for? Nuh uh.

Admittedly, a lot of this is moderately educated speculation. Kuroda might throw me off by getting back into 2006 form or adjusting to the Majors in a way all his own. That's entirely possible, because our sample of historical imports is really small. The probability, however, is that he's a #4 who wants ten million a year, and being a GM is all about playing the odds. Make enough good bets and in the long run, while a few will have blown up in your face, you'll be sitting pretty. Make enough bad bets and you'll be the Orioles. Hiroki Kuroda does not strike me as the best and most cost-effective answer for the rotation, and for that reason I'm not particularly thrilled with the likelihood of his ending up a Mariner.

Better him than Silva, though.

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So,
How many years are we talking about, here?

by naviomelo on Nov 22, 2007 2:19 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hey if signing
Kuroda means not trade our farm for Washed Up Starter #2 (Willis), I'm all for it. They seem to be very similar.
"Kruger! My son tells me, your company shtinks!"-Frank Costanza.

by Coach Owens on Nov 22, 2007 2:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

So,
in essence, we're saying "I'm not upset you're on my team - I'm upset what we had to pay you to get here, but meh."

Right? Kind of a reluctant indifference?

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 22, 2007 2:41 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather they give Kuroda a Washburn deal
than Silva or Lohse a Suppan deal.
When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Nov 22, 2007 2:41 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is there much difference?
Washburn went for 4/37.5 and Suppan went for 4/40, I thought...

by Graham on Nov 22, 2007 2:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

4/42.
"Kruger! My son tells me, your company shtinks!"-Frank Costanza.

by Coach Owens on Nov 22, 2007 2:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting write up Jeff
But I wonder what's your take on the success of Saito, who was average (I think?) in Japan but has been really great for the Dodgers.

Could be that the "pitcher's park" effect has a greater upside for Japanese pitchers who generally (emphasis on "generally") are known to have better control and finesse than their American counterparts.

He's not a finesse pitcher, but I suspect that if Matsuzaka had come to Safeco instead of Fenway, his numbers would have rocked.

And I also think that with Safeco and Joh, there's more upside for the M's to be pursuing Japanese pitchers than any other team.

by Tom C on Nov 22, 2007 3:16 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

With that said,
I remember now to have some vague memories of seeing Kuroda pitch during the WBC (sorry, it could have been during the annual MLB All Stars vs. Japan All Stars thing in the fall) and wasn't impressed. His speed wasn't so great, but what was more scary was that he seemed to have no deception and his control wasn't so great.

I'm not able to crunch numbers, but that's personal impression from actually seeing him pitch on TV (EXTREME small sample size warning, yes).

If Kuroda's really expensive, it might be better to try to strike gold cheaply with some Japanese pitcher with less credentials in Japan (and less speed) but with more control. But who the heck is that guy?!?

by Tom C on Nov 22, 2007 3:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Talking to myself here, but I searched the net and
found some videos of Kuroda.

Yes, he was the guy that was in my memory. But thinking back to the flotsam that we trotted out last season, I would be happy to see this guy pitching in the slot behind Batista. Would surely be worth to give this guy a Washburn contract in this market.

(Also not like the money would be spent well elsewhere, most likely. Unless we do have some savvy Far East scout out there who has a chance to strike gold).

by Tom C on Nov 22, 2007 3:52 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Er, well
As I said in the Kuroda diary, Hiroshima's dimensions are 300/380/300.  That's ridiculous by any means.  It's the stadium you always want to pick for the HR Derby in Pawapuro.  Heck, when I went to a game there last September I saw 7 homeruns.  Whoosh.  I wouldn't worry about the HR numbers all that much.  To only allow 20 in Hiroshima is actually a really great feat.  

If you care, here's his splits, though they're in Japanese.  In 102 innings pitched in Hiroshima he gave up 15 home runs.  In 79.2 innings elsewhere he gave up 5.

Also, if you saw the same scouting report Churchill was forwarding around about how "a Seattle scout went to see Kuroda in the Japan Series", they were really talking about Kawakami, being as Hiroshima only managed to avoid finishing dead fucking last by Yakult sucking even more than they did.

by Deanna on Nov 22, 2007 7:21 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Talk about Swallows
Yeah, that's a really small park.  I'm not sure Kuroda, even with the more powerful hitters in MLB, still doesn't adjust well to Safeco, keeping in mind the parks that the aforementioned Japanese pitchers pitched half their games in.

by Gomez on Nov 22, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh sweet, splits.
Well that's encouraging.

by Jeff on Nov 22, 2007 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I ran that through Google Translation
Looking at his splits, he had five pressurized hits by a pitch against right shots, but none against left strokes, which is encouraging.

Also, except for an outlier (vs. Chunichi), his "doctor struck out" numbers were very solid down the line.

With that information, I think I'm in support of this signing.

by Teej on Nov 22, 2007 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is hilarious.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 22, 2007 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good Scouting report from some Japanese friends
here:
http://detectovision.com/?p=852

The report is from last offseason when it was thought he would come this way for about 5-6mm/yr, so keep the context in mind. The info about his pitching is very good.

by bilbo on Nov 22, 2007 7:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
That helps a ton.
Between this and the info Deanna has offered - both help to explain the stats - I can see Kuroda fitting in as a #3 for the Mariners.

by KC on Nov 22, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's some compilation videos
on youtube that feature Kuroda if you want to take a look. I'll get links up later if you can't find them.

If Kuroda gives up a grand slam as a Mariner, will you still post the atomic bomb graphic?

by Mere Tantalisers on Nov 22, 2007 7:54 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Here is one
Here is a Youtube video of Kuroda pitching in 07 All Star game.  Sorry, I don't remember how to make link, so please copy and paste:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QhfHMxWPA
kupo!

by toshi on Nov 22, 2007 8:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you can watch all the kuroda video you ever wanted
and more...

http://youtube.com/user/acekuroda

Some person's whole account is dedicated to Kuroda.  I've made this comment in here before, but watching the video, it looks like he throws about 90-91 consistently, based on a rough conversion of the 145/146 km/h he routinely hits.

It seems really difficult to determine what makes one Japanese pitcher vs. another successful here given the recent examples we have - but I would bet he could figure out a way to win 13 games in the bigs, and for that - he'd be one of our finest arms, sadly.

"back in the day, Reggie Jackson would have called that a 'tits high' pitch" - Dave Henderson
the log

by OlyOle on Nov 22, 2007 9:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

If Kuroda goes for what they're saying
i.e. 3-4 years at ~11M per year, than I'd rather have Silva at 4-5 years and ~13M per year.

If he comes for under 4 years and for under 10M per than meh.

by Matthew on Nov 22, 2007 11:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

At those prices
At those prices, I'd rather take a chance on the unknown rather than the known suck.  At least the next 4.5 months wouldn't be totally filled with disgust and regret.

by david h on Nov 22, 2007 7:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Silva doesn't suck.
I don't know where the reputation comes from, but Carlos Silva is a good pitcher, he's just not a great pitcher.

by Matthew on Nov 22, 2007 8:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Video of an 11 pitch AB against Hideki Matsui
<small sample size warning>
I'm not sure how old this is but obviously it's from 2002 or earlier. He seemed to have some trouble with the splitter but put Matsui away with what looked like a slider. I like that he didn't give in during this AB even though he had what appeared to be control issues.


by 116in01 on Nov 22, 2007 1:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cool uniform.
I'd support this signing like the blind idiot I can be sometimes.

by Patrick517 on Nov 22, 2007 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That'd be fine with me.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 22, 2007 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Is it wrong that I can't stop thinking
it might be good if we were able some way to get Igawa from the yankees for cheap.  He threw some nice innings in AAA and I think his numbers see kinda fluky in the bad/unlucky way.  He might just suck though.  His contract is only 4yr/15 million which is pretty nice looking in this market.

by Edgar for Pres on Nov 22, 2007 6:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Weirdass
Is one word eh?

Im fine with this signing, especially if Churchill's numbers are correct (well, im fine with this signing).

Hey how about those Senators? Kicking ass while my Sabres flounder. Least my Avs are doing well...

by Slica on Nov 22, 2007 9:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

this was a great post...
...thanks for the insight on Kuroda.

by dirka dirka on Nov 23, 2007 10:34 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather have Silva
Kuroda's $numbers are getting out of control. I'm reading things like $12Mil. I'm not a huge Silva fan, but at least you have some idea of what you're getting.
Great post though.
And if folks haven't seen this one...http://www.eastwindupchronicle.com/?p=384
They have something today on Chen as well.

by BB on Nov 23, 2007 10:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

PS
Don't think his HR rate will rise. He played in a real bandbox according to the prev mentioned article.

by BB on Nov 23, 2007 11:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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