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Will Ichiro Be a Mariner in 2008?

I've been dealing with one of those internal monologues on whether or not I wanted to post these next few articles. My general feeling was that I was being too negative. I wasn't necessarily happy with the fact I couldn't think of anything good to write and the age old adage of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" kept ringing in the back of my head. Needless to say, rational thought won out and this will be the first of a few posts that look beyond the disastrous off-season and into 2007 and beyond. So without further ado...

Ichiro is, well, Ichiro. He's an amazing talent on the field and he's the most marketable player the M's have had since Junior. He helped a Mariner nation forget about A-Rod, RJ and Junior. Through a variety of ways, he's made a ton of cash for the owners. His influence opened the door for other Japanese players to make their pilgrimage to the Major Leagues more than any other player before him. Quite simply, he's the best investment and player the team could have ever hoped for.

At 33, Ichiro has made it very clear that winning is his top priority. Last off-season, for the first time in his tenure, we caught wind that Ichiro was unhappy. We learned that he felt the team lacked leadership (without naming names) and a commitment to winning. He's made the comment that he doesn't know how much time he has left in baseball and how he wanted to play for a contender before he was done playing. Of course, he mention that he wanted the M's to be a contender.

Ichiro's as frustrated as he's ever been and, I believe, there is a good chance that Ichiro will be playing elsewhere in 2008. Here's why:

  • Ichiro's agent, Tony Attanasio, mentioned earlier in the off-season that he will not approach the Mariners about a contract extension for Ichiro. He made it clear that they would listen, but they were comfortable going into the season without a new contract. Bavasi rarely talks about contracts with the media and is really good about defusing those contract questions so it's impossible to know where the M's stand. I'm sure they will talk extension with him, but is it possible that Ichiro wants to try to win a ring in the Major Leagues before he retires and might seek greener pastures?
  • Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre, JD Drew, Vernon Wells. $10 million, $9 million, $14 million, $18 million. Big money was given to center fielders this off-season and of course Carlos Beltran in the 2004 off-season (7 years, $119 million). While part of me wants to believe that Ichiro's slide to CF was because he was a team player and wanted to do whatever he could to help the team, I see his sudden willingness to slide over as a contract driven decision.

    Ichiro will make $13.5 million in the final year of his contract in 2007 (which by this markets standards, turns out to be a bargain). If the CF market stays similar to what it was this season, how much is Ichiro worth going forward? 3 years, $54 million? What about 4 years, $80 million? Ichiro fills two key roles for a ball club (CF and leadoff) and is one of the best at both. Who knows what he might fetch on the open market and you better believe his agent is fully aware of that.

    And what about a hometown discount? The M's didn't get one last time and with the current pathetic state of the organization; definitely don't expect one this time around.

  • Adam Jones and Jose Guillen. The 21 year old CF is one of the bright spots in this team's future and he'll be starting his second season in AAA this season. If his progression continues on the same path, he could be ready to start collecting full time AB's by the end of the year or at worst, the start of the 2008 season.

    Jose Guillen was brought in to fill the void created by Ichiro shifting to CF for 2007. He's a risk, but if his elbow is healthy and he puts together a solid season, the M's hold a mutual option for 2008.

    How does this factor into the M's decision making process? They have a young kid who is just waiting in the wings and a RF on the roster with an option for 2008. If Ichiro starts to price himself out of the M's market and does decide to move on, they've got options.

  • The 2008 budget is already tight, with nearly $64 million paid to nine players (including YuBet). Factor in the likely multi-year deals or significant raises to guys like Putz, Lopez, Betancourt, Broussard (if he's still here), Ramirez and your easily approaching the $75 million-80 million mark on thirteen players. Throw in the possible Reitsma and Guillen options and you're closer to $90 million.

    Yes, a lot can happen between now and the end of next year. Salaries could be dealt or added, signed or released. But assuming that everyone who is currently under contract for 2008 returns, there isn't a lot of wiggle room in the budget.

  • There will be a new front office staff and manager in 2008. Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment. While this team could surprise and win 90+ games this season, it's just as likely that the club struggles to win 70+. Let's assume that we split the difference and this team wins 80 games. That's not going to allow Bavasi and Hargrove to keep their jobs and the possibility remains that Lincoln and even Armstrong get the boot.

    With a new front office, will they share the same affinity with Ichiro? Will they want to take the front office in a new direction and shape the team in their own vision? Will Ichiro be a part of that vision? These are all questions that no one has the answer for. Hell, I'm not so sure that if the team collapses, that Ichiro will still be here in August.

It's difficult to envision a Mariner's team without Ichiro at the top of the line-up card and patrolling the outfield. While I've always been a fan and will always be a fan of Ichiro, I'm not so sure that signing Ichiro to a large extension is currently in the best interest of the team. With the current internal options that are available and the difficulty that may arise with the payroll constraints, it may be difficult to justify giving a 33 year old a long-term deal. But then again, the marketability that Ichiro brings to the M's is huge.

Will the M's make a baseball decision or will the M's make a business decision? Or better yet, does Ichiro even want to return? Time will tell.

Update [2007-1-12 17:5:7 by Trent]: There is a Japanese article today that apparently talks about Ichiro leaving at the end of the season. I can't read Japanese and the internet translation is almost as difficult to decipher as the Japanese itself. I personally didn't see this article until about thirty minutes after I posted this morning, so my intent wasn't to start a mass panic thread. Just something to think about.

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He's always seemed like an honest guy.
So hopefully he doesn't play the A-Rod game and string things out for a buck. If he's gone, he's gone, and should be dealt in July.

by AnotherAaron on Jan 12, 2007 10:58 AM PST reply actions  

You have got to trade him.
And I'd rather it be now, than at the deadline, when his value will be less.

I think the Dodgers and the Mets are the first two places to start.

Of course, we all know this is a pipe dream, but oh, how it could improve our future...

by tait644 on Jan 12, 2007 10:59 AM PST reply actions  

I think the Mariners need to find out soon
weather or not he;s going to be here past this season. If he isn't, then he needs to be traded before the deadline. Before Snelling was traded, I was all for trading Ichiro right now, because I felt that not only could Snelling do fine in right, but he could do ok in the leadoff spot with his OBP abilities.

Like you said, with Jones and Guillen with us, losing Ichiro the outfielder isn't that much of a problem. Losing Ichiro the leadoff hitter is however.

I don't think losing Ichiro the cashcow, or Ichiro the face of the franchise is going to be as big a problem as some people think. I think that Felix may very well take over both of those roles by the end of the year. Especially if he becomes a top 5 pitcher this season at 21 years old.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 12, 2007 11:00 AM PST reply actions  

I don't think a long term deal
is a good idea either. He's entering his mid 30s and the biggest part of his offense is his speed. I'm sure he'll adjust but it won't be the Ichiro of old once he starts losing a step. Maybe the slumps get longer and more frequent. I know I'm in the minority, but giving him a 4 or 5 year deal just doesn't seem prudent to me.

by Mariner John on Jan 12, 2007 11:13 AM PST reply actions  

When his speed starts to go
he could always start to hit for more power.

by Robert on Jan 12, 2007 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Why do people always say this?
The biggest part of Ichiro's offense is his bat control.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 12, 2007 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

In my opinion
Ichiro's offensive success are due to:

1. Bat speed
2. Bat control
3. Speed

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

You could make an argument that way, sure
But to ignore what he does with the bat and say that speed is his greatest tool is crazy.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 12, 2007 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed
His speed just makes him that much more of a dynamic player.

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

My opinion on control vs batspeed though
Is that Ichiro! is pretty quick going through the strike zone, but not so much that he's clearly better than every other player alive - Snelling gets his bat through a hair quicker, for example.

However, from the -way- he moves, it's pretty obvious that he's a magician. And since he's had such great success, I'm inclined to think that that's what's key.

People are as fast as Ichiro, people swing just as quick, but nobody handles the bat like him.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 12, 2007 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Ichiro's game is dependent on BA and SB
and if you take 20 hits away per season because he stops bunting and beating out infield grounders... and he becomes a 20 swipe guy instead of a 45 SB guy... he becomes pretty average (.293 BA vs. .322 BA.) and stops looking like a great leadoff guy (his greatest asset).  If he loses speed, he HAS to develop more power and become a Johnny Damon type.

He may be a magician with the bat, but he's no Wade Boggs.  He hits A LOT of ugly choppers and flares that require speed to be singles.  

Of course, Kenny Lofton had an Ichiro-esque half-year in '05 with the Phillies at the ripe old age of 38.

by johnbai on Jan 12, 2007 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Ichiro does better when he hits GB
Most good GB hitters are fast. I'm aware that he has the best bat control in the league but I seem to remember the terrible stretches he has every year more than the ass kicking stretches. Myabe those stretches will be more frequent or last longer as he ages. He's a difficult player to project because he's so unique.

by Mariner John on Jan 12, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Move him now
for pitching and prospects....this season is a waste anyway.
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Jan 12, 2007 11:36 AM PST reply actions  

Trade him
Fruto, Snelling, and Zimmerman!

Not that that'd EVER happen.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 12, 2007 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

I think we need to sweeten that deal.
How about we throw in.....wait for it....wait for it.....Vidro!
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 12, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

The Nintendo question
Whether or not Ichiro! returns is probably, in large measure, whether or not Mr. Yamauchi agrees to Ichiro moving on.  It would be a great cultural no-no for Ichiro! not to consult with Mr. Yamauchi before making such a decision.  Ichiro! is a bit of a rebel, but he does respect the culture.  If you are an optimist (and I'm not), you can spend next season fantasizing that Mr. Yamauchi will clean out the entire front office next fall in order to keep Ichiro! here.  That'll be more fun to contemplate than next season's play on the field.

The speculation that Ichiro is motivated by big bux rings hollow.  He profits greatly from making endorsements in Japan, and if he wanted, he could tap a large income stream here doing the same.  He chooses not to.  (Many athletes make far more money doing endorsements than in earnings/winnings.)  Ichiro! is genuinely motivated to play for a winning team (which, of course, helps the endorsement business somewhat), not by salary.  He has all the money he needs.  He has a large ego, but it feeds on winning, not cash.  Which is admittedly unusual in America.

Would he consider playing for Tampa Bay?  Never.  (Contrast a certain Mariners ex-manager.)  And other than the size of the payroll, why would Ichiro! perceive any difference between Tampa Bay the the present-day Mariners?  Unless Mr. Yamauchi  keeps him here (which I think will require an affirmative act by Mr. Y), Ichiro! will be gone.

Finally, and unrelated, it'd sure be nice to see Ichiro! draw more walks.  That's the one glaring hole in his game.

Thoan

by Thoan on Jan 12, 2007 11:47 AM PST reply actions  

Ichiro and Decline...
I'd be willing to bet that the standard decline issues with Ichiro will be pretty much minimized by the fact that Ichiro is the most disciplined and focused athlete (health-wise) in baseball.  The only thing that I see changing this, really, is a major significant injury due to collision or something of that sorts.  Getting into the multiple-intelligences theory that I learned about back in my Ed. school days, if Kinesthetics intelligence is indeed something that exists, Ichiro is a genius in this regard.  That will tremendously help him defer the effects of the normal aging process.

Sure, he'll lose a step eventually.  But with his strict training regimen and meticulous attention to detail, it will happen much later in life for him than for other major leaguers.  I'd have no fear of decline if the M's were to give him another 4-5 years.  He's got plenty of gas left in the tank.  I'd be more worried about his attitude than his body.

Iceberg, right ahead!

by PositivePaul on Jan 12, 2007 11:54 AM PST reply actions  

Nope.
I'm pretty sure this has been on the minds of a lot of people well before that article showed up.

It's been on my mind since the Soriano trade, actually...

Iceberg, right ahead!

by PositivePaul on Jan 12, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually
this post was up a half hour before DMZ even posted that article and I haven't even looked at it.

And I don't think anyone is freaking out. Just talking about the possibilities/likeliness that 2007 might be his last season as a Mariner.

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 12:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess
It was just weird to go check the blogs and see "OMGWTFICHIRO" articles on USSM and LL.

As usual, of course, I'm just like "whatever, let's see how the M's are doing in July".

Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on Jan 12, 2007 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Ichiro
If he wants a ring -- and there's no reason he shouldn't -- then he should leave. It's the right decision for him.

However, about this section:

"While this team could surprise and win 90+ games this season, it's just as likely that the club struggles to win 70+. Let's assume that we split the difference and this team wins 80 games. That's not going to allow Bavasi and Hargrove to keep their jobs and the possibility remains that Lincoln and even Armstrong get the boot."

I'm surprised that after last season -- when we were all so certain that Hargrove was gone unless the team had a good year -- that we're still banging this same drum: "They have to win to save their jobs." Clearly they don't. If anything is obvious by now, it's that you can perform poorly and still keep your job in the Mariners organization. Seriously: stop indexing Bavasi's and Hargrove's job security against a win total. That's not what the team is using in making hire-fire decisions, and we need to stop pretending that they are.

Pregnancy takes nine months, no matter how many women you put on the job.

by zagreusmd on Jan 12, 2007 12:09 PM PST reply actions  

Job security
I guess that the majority of Mariner fans out there, including myself, read the end of the season letter out of context then. Because in my opinion, it makes it pretty clear that Bavasi, Hargrove and even Howard himself, are on the chopping block if they don't win.

Sure, I'm always skeptical about this, but I'm confident that this organization, will not allow another failed season to go without another management house cleaning. But everyone has their own opinion.

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 12:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Right, the difference between this and Hargrove
last season, is that the Mariners are on public record as stating that their jobs are on the line. To where with the Hargrove thing, that was all internet induced, the Mariners never actually said anything public to that effect.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 12, 2007 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

There's a HUGE difference
between not firing someone and renewing their contract.

by Matthew on Jan 12, 2007 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Heh
There's always that too.

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Trade Ichiro TODAY
I've been on this bandwagon for a while.  He's an overrated player (at least he was as a RF), and would bring a terrific haul.

The Dodgers, Mets, or Angels would be the three teams I'd approach about an Ichiro deal.  

The chances are slim to none that he's coming back, and now this lastest article provides the political "cover" management would need to justify dealing Ichiro.

This is such an obvious move, it's maddening.  Which, given our current leadership, scares the crap out of me.

by tait644 on Jan 12, 2007 12:51 PM PST reply actions  

Never happen
with the need to win today that the M's have stated they need to do, trading Ichiro now makes zero sense for the organization.  Not going to get a better CF in return at this late stage of the off-season.

The problem is this:  If you trade Ichiro now, its a public relations nightmare going into ST, Ichiro is the face of the M's right now until someone else steps forward marketability wise....

If the M's keep Ichiro to start the season and like last year the M's are in the thick of the race thru July... you again are in a position where you can't really justify trading him...

So what's going to happen is.... Ichiro will remain a Mariner and if he choses to sign with another team, that's will be that.

In this case, the M's are truly cornered into a bad situation.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 12, 2007 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Exactly
I struggle to see any situation where the M's deal Ichiro, even if they fall out of contention early in the season. The chance is there, but the fact that they'd be willing to deal the "face" of the club is unlikely. I agree with MFIA that he'll probably walk at the end of the year and the M's will get a compensation pick for him.

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Compensation Pick for Ichiro
Ugh.  That sounds criminal, doesn't it?

by tait644 on Jan 12, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Two
If Ichiro leaves, they will get two draft picks.  He will be a Type A easily.  Still, that would hurt to lose Ichiro for just two picks.  

I would hope that that M's would listen to offers for Ichiro if they had a good idea that he planned to go elsewhere.  Given their current situation, I don't think the M's should resign him unless they can do so at a below-market price.  

But if Ichiro makes that decision for them, and the team is not a serious contender next July, it would be criminal to turn down good offers just to save face.  Even at mid-season, lots of clubs will be offering substantial talent for a guy like Ichiro, especially clubs like the Cubs, Red Sox, and White Sox who would look to resign him afterwards.  The M's would almost definitely be able to get much better talent in return - including good young players and advanced prospects - then they would with two extra picks.  

Obviously, the M's will not enjoy making a very unpopular trade like this.  But if Ichiro is going to leave, the M's have to do what is in the long-term insterest of the club.  

Unfortunately, after this offseason, I don't trust their judgement at all.  

by Jerry on Jan 12, 2007 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Draft Picks...
Except that with Bavasi gone, Fontaine is very likely to follow.  Not sure who might take his place, but I can't think of too many people who could touch Fontaine's expertise in the draft...
Iceberg, right ahead!

by PositivePaul on Jan 12, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

There's a few
and maybe we wouldn't get a guy who would draft Ricky Orta in the 5th or 6th round. I mean, WTF?

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2007 7:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Not that tough
There are lots of good people who could fill that role with the club.  

Part of bringing in a new GM is letting that person fill out the major positions within the organization with people that are on the same page.  

Ideally, the M's will make the right decision on that new GM.  If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect to see the M's draft success fall apart.  

I also wonder if we are giving Fontaine too much credit.  Really, after the M's had a series of absolutely terrible drafts under Mattox, anyone would look like a savior.  Also, a big part of the turnaround is simply having picks.  The M's were giving away high picks every year under Gillick/Mattox.  It is tough to draft well if your first pick is in the third round.  

by Jerry on Jan 14, 2007 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Fontaine
BaseballAmerica rates the M's farm system as the worst in the AL.  Clement and Morrow are hardly great picks, either.

I'd hate to see what he'd do if he had an off year.

by TerryBenish on Jan 16, 2007 8:45 AM PST up reply actions  

I know it won't happen
But I think the PR risk isn't as great as you suggest, in light of the news coming out of Japan about his attitude heading into the year.

Here's the line:  "We are aware of the disappointment our fans have over our decision to trade Ichiro.  However, we believe the player made very clear that he has no intentions of returning to Seattle after 2007.  Given that fact, and our desire to improve this organization's prospects for winning in the future, we decided to do what was best for the team.  We are excited with the acquisition of Andre Eithier, Andy LaRoche and Chad Billingsley, and the fact that they can contribute to this team's success.  We wish Ichiro all the best in the future."

I agree it's a hard sell, but there's no question what will be better for the franchise.

by tait644 on Jan 12, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Nah
I would prefer Loney.  

by Jerry on Jan 12, 2007 5:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Debatable
That would actually be a tough call.  

Kemp probably has a bit more upside, but he wasn't really all that great until this year.  

Really, you could also say the same thing about Loney, but he has at least been a highly regarded prospect for a long time.  

Given a decision between the two, with all else being equal, I would take Kemp.  

But Loney would be a fanstastic fit with the M's.  He hits well, his lefty swing would work well in Safeco, and he is an exceptional defensive player.  He would be the second coming of John Olerud.  If the M's could bring him in, they could turn around and deal Sexson.  With Loney at 1B, we would have the best infield defense in baseball.  

Kemp is a good player, and might even be a better all-around player than Loney, but he isn't nearly as good of a fit.  

Thats a tough call, though.  

by Jerry on Jan 14, 2007 9:30 AM PST up reply actions  

It really shouldn't be an issue at all
Weather the fan base likes it or not should be completely irrelevant. What's best for the team, and what helps the team win should be paramount, not what some japanese tourists or John Q Marinerfan thinks.

We've survived the loss of "face of the franchise" players before, we can certainly survive it again.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 12, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

While that's an easy sell
to those of us that live our lives scouring the web about the M's....

its not that easy of a sell to the corporate sponsors, the season ticket holders, and the general public.

I would venture to guess that if you went down to a mall in the Seattle area and polled people that have gone to at-least one game in the past year, and asked them to name One Seattle Mariner.... 80% of those would name Ichiro first.

That's the marketability that would be lost by dealing him.... whether its a contract squabble, or he's saying he won't return... the sponsors and general public don't give a rip, because they don't follow the team like you or I do...

All it would look like to them is another situation of the M's trying to "spin" things... and since they have no idea who Either, LaRoche, or Billingsley are it woudn't be pretty.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 12, 2007 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

So what's the spin
after he leaves at the end of the year?

If Ichiro is so important to the team's bottom line, they've done a poor job of marketing this team. (and yes, I'm aware that Ichiro IS that important to the bottom line).

This is going to happen. He won't be an M in 2008.

I just wish someone in the organization would have the courage to admit this and make an actual baseball decision.  

Seattle's a town of freakin' bandwagoners.  If you build a winner, people will come.

by tait644 on Jan 12, 2007 1:21 PM PST up reply actions  

The Spin
is that he chose to go somewhere else... they'll offer him a contract but like other notable free agents he chose to go somewhere else.

Keeping him is an actual baseball decision, not just a PR Decision.... the M's don't have anyone on their roster that would be a decent leadoff hitter... the M's don't have anyone on their roster that would be a decent full time CF option.   The M's are a better club with Ichiro then without... that's the baseball reality and the precipice as to why they won't deal him.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 12, 2007 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

RE Spin
I agree with what you are saying.  Trading Ichiro would be a very very unpopular move among casual fans.  It would also hurt them at the box office.  

But this has happened before.  

Griffey forced a trade, and the M's facilitated it.  

They knew that Randy Johnson was going to bail, and they traded him at the deadline.  

Both players were also team icons.  

If Ichiro lets the club know that he is looking to move on after the season, it wouldn't be a whole lot different than Randy and Junior.  

I think that it is far less likely that Ichiro exits like A-Rod.  I am sure that Alex had no intentions of returning to the M's.  But I am sure that his agent wanted the M's in the bidding.  I would be suprised if Ichiro did the same with thing, considering his personality and his ties with the ownership.  

by Jerry on Jan 12, 2007 5:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Jr and Randy
were easier to trade precisely because the team had other marketable superstars on the roster. If Ichiro goes, who's left? Ibanez? I'm sure the FO is terrified about that.

I disagree that Alex wanted no part of Seattle. I think Alex would have gone to whomever gave him the most $$$.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2007 7:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Marketable Players If Ichiro Leaves...
Yeah, Ibanez is probably one, but I'd say Sexson and even moreso Beltre would be escalated into the forefront.  Felix, too.  I would imagine that if Beltre and or Felix were to have bust out seasons, it would make it a little easier for the M's to pimp those guys and for those guys to win the hearts of fans.  
Iceberg, right ahead!

by PositivePaul on Jan 13, 2007 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Question...
how do the Mets seem to be even remotely interested?  They have Beltran.  Sure, they have money, but they won't really be after Ichiro, unless to him back to RF.

by ppl4life on Jan 12, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

76 wins is better than 72....
You get the point, right?

This team has too many flaws to be overcome by Ichiro.

What, exactly, are we playing for in 2007?  Respectability?  Pride?  .500?

by tait644 on Jan 12, 2007 1:47 PM PST reply actions  

They are playing
for the division title... there is no team in the division that is head and shoulders better than the other teams... this team was in the thick of it until a late July meltdown...

So while we may not like the moves that have been made or agree with them, there is no real reason to write off the season, the M's have a team that will compete, and if a couple things go right, who knows...

Dumping the players that are good (like Ichiro) for prospects lowers the M's chance of competing in the division this year, which is the stated goal...

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 12, 2007 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you mean ado.
Unless you're saying goodbye in French.

Not to be the pedantry police; I know as a fellow blogger that we have no editor, but it stuck out for me so I thought you'd want to know.

by John Morgan @ Lookout Landing on Jan 12, 2007 1:57 PM PST reply actions  

heh
Thanks. I have been having a fit with my spell checker recently and it passed over thurough last night and suggested I change ado. Stupid.

by Trent on Jan 12, 2007 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Unless this team's in the toilet
and Ichiro throws a T.O.esque tantrum over it, the Mariners are probably not trading Ichiro.  Trading him would net great value, but it doesn't appear to be in the cards.

And all the blah blah blah about attendance nosedives and such will come to pass in 2008.  And I'm not sure 90+ wins and even serious title contention would bring people back.

by Gomez on Jan 13, 2007 1:08 AM PST reply actions  

Yes it will
I bet you that no matter how pissed off the fanbase gets if Ichiro leaves, that it will become a non issue if they are in the title hunt in 2008.

Their are ALOT of bandwagon fans in this state. ALOT.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 13, 2007 1:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Let's hope so
I wouldn't mind being wrong about that, obviously.

by Gomez on Jan 13, 2007 6:42 PM PST up reply actions  

No Ichiro, no Chaney
That's roughly how I feel about the whole thing. Maybe I'll come back for those 30 Felix starts... Nah, he'll probably get injured by then.

by chaney on Jan 13, 2007 10:04 AM PST reply actions  

Not to single you out
but why exactly would you give up on the Mariners? Did you give up on the M's after A-Rod, Griffey or RJ left? What happens if Ichiro walks away in free agency? What if the M's sign him to a 4 year $72 million extension and because of the teams poor money management, can't afford to upgrade for the next two years and remain a mediocre club? What if they trade him and acquire a group of prospects who become the core of the team in 2008 and beyond?

by Trent on Jan 13, 2007 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Offer him 4/$72
or 5/$100, or whatever.  If he doesn't take it then you have the PR spin to move him. And while Ichiro would be hard to replace, I would be ok with Jones in CF for now and moving Ichiro for a package like Penny, Either, Loney.

Put the ball in his court and move on.

by bilbo on Jan 13, 2007 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Is Ichiro worth that much money?
Or would the team be better off spending the money elsewhere?

by Trent on Jan 13, 2007 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

No
To answer your question, no.  

I don't think that any player is worth over $15 mil/year unless that guy is an elite run producer.  Manny Ramirez, Albert Pujols, A-Rod type guys.  Thats it.  The cream of the crop.  

Ichiro is the best in baseball at what he does.  But the fact is, it is not that difficult to find players who do what he does well: get on base, steal bases, and play fantastic outfield defense.  Really good leadoff hitters just aren't that tough to find.  You can get 80% of the performance for far less money.  With run producers, that isn't true.  

The most difficult things to find in baseball are elite run producers and elite ace pitchers.  Besides the Red Sox and the Yankees, teams can only afford to pay one or two players that type of money.  The M's should limit their huge mega-contracts to players who have skill sets that are rare.  Pay top dollar for your #3 and #4 hitters, not your leadoff guy.  

 

by Jerry on Jan 14, 2007 9:38 AM PST up reply actions  

So are you a Mariners fan?
Or just an Ichiro fan?
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 13, 2007 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I know how you feel, Chaney.
I think Ichiro is by far the best thing on the Mariners.

What with the Washburn, Ho-Ram=TOR, Everett=leftysock, Vidro=DH, "Mission accomplished" BS etc., if the FO manages to drive him away they are dead to me.

by Tom C on Jan 15, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, right...
What if Felix wins the Cy Young next year?  

What if the M's got back a guy like Grady Sizemore, Ryan Zimmerman, Justin Verlander, or Francisco Liriano in the deal?  

What if Jeff Clement has a crazy breakthrough year and emerges as one of the best catchers in the game?  

Or if Adam Jones comes up and is much better than everyone expects (IMO, he is really underrated due to the M's aggressive promotions...look beyond the stats)?  

What if Brandon Morrow makes like Justin Verlander, and speeds through the minors next year?  

Fans are fickle.  I don't want to speak for you, since I don't know you, but I suspect that most people who feel the way that you do would be back in the stands and buying jerseys of the next big M's star real quick.  

And, this issue isn't just limited to trading Ichiro.  If Ichiro walked, would your lack of interest in the M's be any different?  There is a very strong chance that Ichiro is going to leave regardless.  If that is the case, wouldn't it be best to get back talent in return?  

by Jerry on Jan 15, 2007 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Jerry
Of course I do have interest in Felix. And how will Johjima do in his 2nd year? He could be the best catcher we'll ever have. YuBet?
And I am praying that Ichiro will be back, unlike others who are eager to trade our best player away without even seeing how the season pans out.
(Ichiro obviously loves Seattle and the fans. Despite Hargrove, despite the FO, if we compete and if the M's offer is reasonable, I'm thinking he'll be back).

In any case, I'm pissed off at the FO for sucking up so bad these years after 2001. They had a great superstar who loves it here in Seattle, who's salary was reasonable, and who's one of the best players in the league.
If they hadn't been so crackbrained (whether someone's a "local boy" or not is so so important when evaluating talent) and penny pinching/timid when it counted, the M's could have been perennial contenders.
Why did it come down to this BS? If they weren't such douches, we wouldn't have to be having this sad discussion.

And I notice that Ichiro's detractors (not you) are eager to trade him away and think they'll get a fortune for him (players who may or with Bavasi's track record, may not pan out at all).
Funny that the people who value him the least (not you) think that Bavasi will be able to get so much for him.
Great player though I think he is, in 2007 we're talking about a "rent-a-player". Why give away the farm when you can try to win his services through FA? The FO doesn't really have nor deserve any leverage here.

by Tom C on Jan 16, 2007 1:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Just to clarify my position
in case you were grouping me in the detractors category. I'm only in favor of trading Ichiro if we know for sure that he is walking after the season is over.

Yeah, we'll lose a little bit of leverage because he would be a rent-a-player, but don't underestimate the value of a face and reputation to baseball GM's. They will pay out the nose for it.

And for everbody saying we aren't going to get much for Ichiro because it would be Bavasi doing the dealing, I disagree. Even the dumbest GM would be able to get a good haul for him. Teams will pay a good deal for him, especially if the Mariners could get a few teams in a bidding war.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 16, 2007 2:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Goose
I get you. From everything I've read it seems obvious that Ichiro really loves the fans here in Seattle and the city itself. I'm praying he'll stay here in Seattle, despite the FO.

My ideal scenario would be that the M's are slow out of the gate, enough to get Hargrove and Bavasi fired, a new manager comes in, the team goes on a tear and make the playoffs...

But realistically, I can't see Lincoln making such a  "bold" move, especially since they're so penny-pinching (despite being rich) that they think as long as they're paying Hargrove millions (uggghhhh) they might as well let him work (i.e. wreak his destruction) until the contract is finished. Bleh.

by Tom C on Jan 16, 2007 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Trading Ichiro
Bavasi et al really botched this offseason in every way possible, including the Ichiro situation.  

Now, the M's have far less leverage, far fewer potential trade partners, and will get less in return if they do decide to move him.  

They should have approached Ichiro about an extension early in the offseason, before free agency even started.  They should have offered him a good extension and done everything in their power to evaluate whether or not he was serious about coming back.  If they weren't sure about his intentions, or it was looking like he would walk, then they should have gotten srious about trading him.  

Early in the offseason, there were a lot of clubs looking for CFers.  The Angels (Gary Matthews Jr.), Giants (Dave Roberts), and Dodgers (Juan Pierre) all signed CFers who are inferior to Ichiro for big money.  All three of those clubs would have likely been involved in the bidding for Ichiro if the M's put him on the block.  Add those clubs to teams like the Red Sox, Cubs, and White Sox, and you have a bonafide bidding war.

In a situation like this, the M's would be presented with some very good offers.  Bavasi could have perhaps picked up 3 very good players.  

Ichiro's value during the offseason would be much more than it would be mid-season.  

Hopefully, the M's did go through this process that I just outlined, and concluded that Ichiro is likely to resign.  But it seems more and more likely that Ichiro will leave every week, particularly after this horrible offseason.  

The M's mismanagement of this whole situation has everything to do with having a GM on the hotseat.  In Bavasi's current situation, the front office put him in a position where he is nearly guaranteed to make self-serving moves that will not benefit the club long-term.  

by Jerry on Jan 16, 2007 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

You must have missed
the "Mission Accomplished" PR bullshit.

After stating explicitly before each season (coming off a last place finish) that a TOR and left sock (MOTO) were the top priorities of the offseason.

by Tom C on Jan 16, 2007 1:29 AM PST up reply actions  

The PR bullshit is aimed towards John Q Marinerfan
Who believes it. If I were you, I'd pretty much ignore it completely. It means nothing.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 16, 2007 2:30 AM PST up reply actions  

That's exactly what it is
PR. Bavasi knows that Washburn and Ramirez aren't Johan Santana.

by Mariner John on Jan 16, 2007 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

And in other news
According to Prospect Insider, The Dobber has been placed on waivers.

I'd laugh if somebody claims him.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 13, 2007 8:56 PM PST reply actions  

Good riddance
I touched off a firestorm with a statement like that last summer and got my head bit off by a lot of people.  Thats ok with me, I'll say it again and stand by it again.  Ichiro is bad for the team, they will be better off without him, the sooner he is gone the better if you ask me.  

He's not a team guy, he's a me guy.  All he wants is hits, he doesn't walk, because while we all know the old adage that a walk is good as a hit, aparently that does not translate well to Japanese.

He separates himself from the team, he doesn't stretch or do anything with the team, he's just Ichiro, Twinky rightfielder, or i guess centerfielder now.

The team lacks leadership...well Mr. Ichiro, instead of saying the team lacks leadership, BE A DAMN LEADER.  He's "the best player on the team" so shouldn't he be the leader?

Ichiro may be discontented with Seattle, but I am discontented with him.  Get rid of him, get what you can (which probably won't be as much as most people are expecting...honestly how much would you give for a weak slap hitter that doesn't walk, won't go hard to the wall and REFUSES to slide or dive to make a catch?  I wouldn't give much) and go on your way without him.  

Lifelong M's fan

by grizant05 on Jan 13, 2007 9:18 PM PST reply actions  

*Gets out popcorn and bunch-a-crunch*
Oh boy, the responses to this should be fun.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 13, 2007 9:22 PM PST up reply actions  

haha
Yeah, they were the last time...enjoy!  But just watch, they'll get better once he's gone.
Lifelong M's fan

by grizant05 on Jan 13, 2007 9:28 PM PST up reply actions  

As I recall
his last foray into the world of plate patience didn't turn out so well.

by Mariner John on Jan 13, 2007 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

This is what I wrote at SportSpot...
The reason why he can't lead the M's is because the team isn't built to conduce his leadership.

None of the players respect his way. The entire team is setup as to treat those who overachieve or achieve results as a result of heavy personal training as retards (i.e. "special") and they overvalue personal traits that have little or no effect on the field (i.e. "gritty").

The Japanese way of Baseball is based on polishing the personal game to its best first, THEN playing for the team. It heavily values on doing 500 dives at third, 250 fungos in the outfield, 100 warm-up pitches or 100 batting practice pitches against the opposite hand, and mastering the skills involved in fielding, hitting and pitching. It values both camaraderie that's developed on the field from training hard together and off the field with drinks or something after practice.

----------------------------->

You guys also have to remember that Ichiro doesn't shy away from saying that he plays baseball for himself.

But Ichiro's "self-centeredness" is about making himself the best player he can be.

Ichiro isn't about being a ball hog, a Kobe Bryant. But he's also not about settling for the blomper to 2nd to advance the runner.

Because before baseball is a team sport, it's an individual sport.

Ichiro is all about living baseball. He's not about just playing ball.

Ichiro is about being 150% the player he can be, THEN give 100% to the team.

----------------------------->

Ichiro believes the M's use the term "team" to brush the importance individual skills under the table.

WFB plays "for the team" by dropping a bunt, stealing a base or the all mighty "advancing the runner". But those are all excuses to start Willie, as he doesn't do much more than that.

Have you guys noticed the M's seem to say more comments like "Vidro would be great behind Ichiro" or "Reitsma is more consistent"?

The Mariners focus on "what can Player X do for the team" before they consider "what can Player X do".

----------------------------->

Ichiro's values seem strikingly similar to VORP-based team construction. He breaks down the way to the most wins as gathering the best individual players.

And if you think of that, it makes sense. 9 Mannys will score more runs than 9 Vidros, but it's hard to get 9 Mannys in the first place.

Of course, a GM has to consider chemistry and all that, and also a field manager who could put it all together. But it's not as if a Manny or Griffey or A-Rod goes out and pisses on his team mates. You just have to filter out the Sheffs and god forbid, the Guillens.

----------------------------->

Ichiro wants good players before we start talking about "team baseball". Before we go to "Vidro fits great as the number 2 hitter", we need to know "is Vidro a good player?". Before we go to "Reitsma is more consistent and is out there more for the team", we need to know "is Reitsma better than Rafael Soriano?"

I think we all know that Jose Vidro is no Manny Ramirez and that Chris Reitsma, as good as he is, is not in the same class as Rafael Soriano.

Detect-O-Vision

Favor the Bold

by IcebreakerX on Jan 13, 2007 11:00 PM PST up reply actions  

ICHIRO HURTS THE TEAM BY NOT WALKING
man, one of my favorite lines from last summer. Good times.

by Matthew on Jan 14, 2007 12:28 AM PST up reply actions  

and of course it's cousin
ICHIRO HURTS THE TEAM BY NOT SLIDING AND DIVING INTO WALLS!(even though he doesn't have to because he makes routine catches on the plays that everybody else is sliding and diving for because he's that good on defense)BUT HE'S STILL HURTING THE TEAM!!
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Jan 14, 2007 1:19 AM PST up reply actions  

ok
so what about the extra balls that he could catch if he slid or dove for but end up being singles that with our staff end up coming around to score.  Pretty sure runs against hurt the team.  Just watch, they'll be better without him.  I simply don't understand the love fest for Ichiro.  Holler all your stats at me you want.  The stat I want to see is their record with him and their record once he is gone.  Just watch him play, watch his interaction with other players...oh wait there is none.  I just don't like him.

Am I not entitled to my own opinion however warped you people may think it is, which is grounded in observation, or does the majority at this sight get their jollies cutting down anyone who has a difference of opinion?

Lifelong M's fan

by grizant05 on Jan 15, 2007 8:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok, your wish is granted.
I'm going by season rather than actual game-by-game data, because frankly putting that much work into an argument like this is a waste of my valuable time.

Seattle Mariners without Ichiro: 1715-2052 (0.455)
Seattle Mariners with Ichiro: 512-460 (0.527)

Also, I think this whole 'I'm entitled to be wrong because it's my opinion' thing is bollocks anyway.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 15, 2007 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

you're entitled to your opinion
but your observations are wrong.  I've got plenty of pictures I've taken of Ichiro talking/high-fiving/etc with other players on the team.

And if you watch Ichiro play, you'll notice that there would be no benefit to him sliding/diving/etc.  He runs for the ball at the crack of the bat.  If he can't get there, he doesn't get there.  It's that simple.  Plus, he's not stupid enough to get injured doing stuff like that.

I'm not even that big an Ichiro fan.  I'm willing to defend people who don't think he's that great, who don't really care whether he stays or goes.  But I'm not willing to defend people who base it in things that aren't true and pass it off as "opinion" :)

Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on Jan 15, 2007 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I kinda wish
he would dive but Ichiro is too valuable.  His defense is amazing because his range is unbelievable.  90% of other OF couldn't even get close to the balls he pulls up early on.  Think of the guys like Reed who dive for balls all the time.  They get hurt.  The singles they save by diving are not important enough to make it worth Ichiro getting hurt for.

I'm pretty sure the team appreciates Ichiro's work ethic.  You don't always need to be the guy going around telling guys to pick it up.  Thats fine with me.  I think that teamwork and leadership in baseball is very overvalued and that individual performance is really what makes teams great.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 15, 2007 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

well
so when the count is in his favor, or even if is not but he flails away at enough balls out of the zone or in the dirt to otherwise get a walk and ends up striking out or hitting a weak grounder to second and makes an out, is that not hurting the team?  Don't more outs make less opportunities to continue the inning?  If I'm not mistaken if he is not on base he can't score.

Wait let me see the counterargument...Ichiro swings at those balls because he is God and can hit them, he just didn't on that occasion, but its ok because he can hit them sometimes, nevermind the fact that had he shown some plate discipline and not swung at them he might be on base.

Lifelong M's fan

by grizant05 on Jan 15, 2007 8:37 AM PST up reply actions  

He was
46th of 160 qualified at OBP last year. Sure it's fueled by average but it's still effective. He shouldn't change his game when it already works.

His BB/K was 60th of 160. He doesn't really K that much for how much he swings.

by Mariner John on Jan 15, 2007 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

A batter
with a line of 315/360/400 is more valuable than 260/360/400 because singles are more valuable than a walk.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 15, 2007 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Ugh
Can't we have a rational conversation about the pros and cons of keeping/trading Ichiro without taking extreme POVs.  

Ichiro is a damn good player.

What the M's should do in this situation are certainly debatable.  But lets keep things in perspective.  Ichiro is a very good player.  

by Jerry on Jan 14, 2007 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

All I have to say is
that Ichiros one year when he tried to take more pitches was his worst year in the majors

by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 17, 2007 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know what I'm talking about
-but Jones seems to walk much less than would be acceptable. I know he's VERY young, but how likely is it that he'll ever walk at normal rates, or even walk more often than would be expected? What if this retards his development? But what do I know. Seriously, I don't really know what I'm talking about XD

As for Ichiro, I've never understood the attachment so many have to him. I rooted for Edgar. I rooted for Snelling. I rooted for Moyer and I rooted for Cameron. I even rooted/root for Boone, WFB, Olerud, and Freddy. I've always enjoyed watching Meche pitch, even though he sucks. But I've never found myself particularly entertained by Ichiro, nor have I found him particularly attractive as a player. He hits a lot of groundballs, that find holes, and he's fast. His defense is overrated, as is his arm. He's not superman. He's an amazing player, but when I watch him play, I feel like he's playing more for himself, and not as much for the team. Call it a feeling. Call me a moron. Just my take on things. I wouldn't miss him; he isn't the same caliber player as an A-Rod or a Griffey or a Johnson, and, to me, he doesn't compare to Edgar.

Henry Kissinger ist der Ubermensch

by spittle8 on Jan 14, 2007 5:33 PM PST reply actions  

Nein,
Henry Kissinger ist der kriegverbrecher.

I don't know how you can follow this team, "always" enjoy seeing Meche pitch, and not delight in watching Ichiro.  

Memories Only 'R Us

by Paytheline on Jan 14, 2007 9:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Kissinger>Jesus Christ, of Nazareth
Ichiro always has a look on his face that rubs me the wrong way. It's not that I don't enjoy watching him play, it's just that I don't have an obsession with him, like so many M's fans do.

Kissinger is not a war criminal. That is a simplistic way of looking at things. But I digress...

Henry Kissinger ist der Ubermensch

by spittle8 on Jan 14, 2007 9:24 PM PST up reply actions  

His defense is considered overrated
By people who can't properly evaluate defense.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 15, 2007 1:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Arm overated?
Wow

That should go under the asinine diary I started

by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 17, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

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