State Of The Blog
Happy holidays, and all that.
Anyway, there's no better time than right now to give you a head's up on what's going on for the next four weeks. Bright and early tomorrow morning some friends and I are going on a trip, and I won't be back until January 20th or so. Don't fret, though - I wouldn't dare leave this place alone for that long, so I've chased down some bitchin' pinch-bloggers who've graciously volunteered to help fill in the void. They are, in no particular order:
-Deanna, of Marinerds. Those of you who've been around since the summer will remember that she helped out for a few days in August, and is totally awesome.
-Steve Nelson, of the late Mariners Wheelhouse. Steve was one of the earliest members of the Mariner blogosphere, and the Wheelhouse was a daily read for as long as it was active.
-Trent Taylor, who had his own hilariously named blog a few years ago before he gave it up and it got taken over, presumably by its namesake. Trent then became a regular writer on Leone For Third and Lookout Landing before his day job got in the way, so long-time readers should remember who he is.
Those three are pretty much going to be running the place for the next month or so, so be nice. Since I'll only be able to pop in for a second from Internet cafes every few days, I've given them full admin capabilities, and they're not afraid to use them. Let that be a warning to those of you who love to extol the many virtues of partisan politics or Rene Rivera.
----------
By the way, as a final topic before I start packing, yeah, I'm aware of the Barry Zito rumors, and yeah, I'm nervous. Okay, on the one hand he'd make this team a few wins better by replacing Cha Baek, but on the other he's going to command 6+ years and ~$100m+, which is a top-tier commitment for a guy who isn't a top-tier pitcher. This is probably best examined with a classic pro/con list, which I'll attempt pretty much off the top of my head:
Pro:
- Instantly makes the 2007 team better, making them legitimate contenders in a weak division.
- Zito is great for the park, as he's a flyball pitcher against whom managers refuse to play lefties.
- Only 28, with no history of arm trouble and at least 34 starts for six consecutive seasons.
- Infield fly and line drive rates suggest ability to induce weaker contact than the average pitcher.
- No evident career home/road splits.
- Puts Seattle back on the map as a potential destination for top free agent talent.
- Gets people more excited for the season to start.
- Routinely beats his FIP/xFIP figures.
- Isn't Joel Pineiro.
Con:
- Not an ace; occupies a tier below the Santanas and Halladays, and may not even be one of the top five starters in the division.
- Strikeout rate has declined substantially from early career peak (16.1% in 2006, 22.7% in 2001). Trend supported by the subjective observation that his velocity is lower than it used to be.
- Set a career-high for walks in 2006.
- Leaving Oakland's foul territory will cost him outs.
- Sub-4 2006 ERA due in large part to flukishly high rate of stranded runners, which isn't a repeatable skill.
- Rarely do pitchers maintain a stable level of performance for six consecutive seasons. Particularly the ones who aren't aces.
- Both Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson saw similar workloads and similar declines in strikeout rate in Oakland before, and soon after leaving they ran into arm trouble.
- Signing Zito and unloading Sexson/Beltre to make room is basically a lateral move on the field with an enormous financial commitment.
- Signing Zito and not unloading Sexson/Beltre to make room means ownership was willing to go higher the whole time, calling into question why they set a strict budget when better players were available both this offseason and in winters past.
- More likely to be an albatross at the end of his contract than a valuable player.
That just about does it. Feel free to fill in anything I might've missed.
Signing Barry Zito to a $100m+/6yr+ contract would represent the triumph of a win-now mentality over long-term sensibility in the front office. This organization's steadfast refusal to go over four years for any pitcher in the past has been one of its few philosophies I supported, and for those guys to consider violating their own rule now to sign someone who isn't even a #1 starter reeks of desperation. Granted, yeah, it'd make me more excited about the team's chances next season, but playing for the current without an eye for the future is how you wind up with teams like the 2001 Orioles or 2004 Mariners. Not that Zito's a guarantee to fall on his face, but who the hell knows what's going to happen in four, five, or six years? Or, as another way of putting it, if the 2004-2006 Zito isn't a $16m+ pitcher, why should we expect the 2007-2012 Zito to be a $16m+ pitcher? Pitchers aren't hitters; they don't hit their prime at 27-29. Zito's been around for six and a half seasons, and he's not getting any better. If the Mariners offer him the money he wants, they'll be doing so because they believe the 2006 Barry Zito is worth it, which he isn't.
I don't think signing Zito would be the colossal, unmitigated disaster I thought it'd be a few months ago, but it still wouldn't be smart, particularly if it resulted in other high-priced non-Washburn players getting jettisoned. The odds of any six-year commitment looking good by the end are slim, and when said contract begins with the player in question already performing worse than he used to, well, that's not a good recipe for success.
Barry Zito's neat and all, but as much as I hate raining on what most people think should be a parade, he doesn't deserve what he wants. Maybe - maybe - it'd be justifiable if he were the last piece of the puzzle, but the only reason he'd even make the 2007 Mariners a contender is because the division blows, and that's a bad place to start.
You overpay for A-grade top talent. Barry Zito doesn't fit the bill.
----------
With that, I'm (almost) gone. Be good, and don't make a mess.
59 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
There seems to be
What I mean is, that quite a few would be happy with a 70 win team as long as they didn't over spend on any player, unless they are hall of fame calibur all the way around.
Personally, me... I don't care how much they spend.... if they shell out 20 million to Zito and it gives the team a better chance at winning more games, then so be it... if it gets them to the playoffs, that's all the better.. and if for some rabbit out of thin air type scenario they actually get to the world series... well I don't care if they don't win 70 games for the remainder of his contract. All I want is a team that has a legitimate shot of getting to the division title and the playoffs.... I don't want the perfect scenario team where each player is paid according to this mythical wage scale that we as fans tend to come up with....
if the going rate for middle tier pitchers (Wasburn, Meche, Lilly and the likes is 4 years and 10 mil...) then I find it hard to say someone with the track record of success that Zito has had isn't worth it, especially if it gives my favorite team a better chance at getting to the playoffs this year. I'm not here to worry about '08 and beyond... too many things can happen in a year to worry about anything other than next season.
Signing Barry Zito, instantly makes this team better.... whether its for 16 mil, or 10 mil.. makes no difference to me... with him we have a much better shot at reaching the playoffs then without him.
See
I'm getting tired of preaching fiscal responsibility.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 26, 2006 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
I hear you...
Is it the 'smart' thing to do? Probably not. It's definitely better to overpay for true superstars, and find good scrubs to help the budget. But as long as they don't gripe about it and be tightwads about it, I really wouldn't care how much they spend. It's the fact that based on their revenues and inflation in general that they HAVEN'T raised the payroll in several years that actually pisses me off more. I'd be THRILLED if they spend the $100-120 million they could be spending. More money in the players' pockets than the owners' pockets is just fine by me.
by PositivePaul on Dec 26, 2006 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
OTOH...
by PositivePaul on Dec 26, 2006 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
He's also comparable to Glavine.
by Mariner John on Dec 26, 2006 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Zito doesn't make this team better
No kidding...
If they have to trade one, I'm praying it's Sexson. Beltre is going to bust out in 2007.
by PositivePaul on Dec 26, 2006 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
Perhaps, Perhaps Not
All I want is a team that has a legitimate shot of getting to the division title and the playoffs
Yes, you do care how much they spend. Money well spent and money ill spent is a big part of what separates teams in MLB. I like wins. Maybe... you're more indifferent?
Arguing in favor of mediocre contracts is tacit acceptance of mediocre teams.
by NBarnes on Dec 26, 2006 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
The way I look at it is
But I do understand how it can cripple teams finically, which is why I always hope for a good deal.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 26, 2006 8:11 PM PST up reply actions
LOL Cartman getting Snelling
Have fun on your trip, Jeff. I'm sure the trio of interim admins with the lot of us can keep things interesting in your absence ;)
6/100 is the right amount
This is actually just about right, if you figure that Zito is a 4-4.5 WAR player. It is pretty easy to argue that Zito is at 4-5 WAR (see URL below), which in today's FA market at $4-4.5mm/game above replacement is pretty much exactly what Zito is worth.
So the only question is really do you want to go six years on a pitcher? Well, if you have to go more years to get your guy and if you ever were going to, Zito is about as healthy a horse as you will come by in free agency. The M's would be better of doing this deal than not.
If it can be done w/o trading Beltre than I am all for it. If not, then I wouldn't want to trade Beltre unless the return were sufficient but who knows if BB could pull that off. ;-)
Oh, and I am tired of thinking about next year so get it done!
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_off_season/#55
I'm skeptical.
I will say this - if they just add Zito without losing anyone (besides Broussard), then it's essentially "free money" that nobody expected us to spend. In that case, go for it, I suppose. We're not really losing anything except payroll flexibility we didn't think we'd have anyway.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 26, 2006 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
Not true on Meche
and I should add
I misspoke.
Here's what it comes down to - that analysis pegs Zito as reasonable at $96m/6yr, based on recent free agent prices. However, free agency is pretty much the worst possible way to build a roster. I think that's where most of the anti-Zito people are coming from.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 26, 2006 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
I can understand THAT argument
Hmm, but then again are those same people arguing that you shouldn't sign ANY free agents? Because if FA isn't the way to build a team then the M's shouldn't ever sign any FAs.
That is not what I hear them arguing, so it must just be Zito isn't worth what he is asking and then we are back to my original point about Zito.
Bottom line is the GMs get a budget and are going to spend as much of it as they can to fill out the roster. If it is $40mm then they trade like Billy and try and make it work. If it is $140mm then they buy like Epstein. Bottom line is if they can afford to buy FAs they do. A GM can do either option and will win when their risks pan out and lose when they don't.
Either way, 6/100 is EXACTLY what Zito is worth ($4mm/WAR) as a FA.
It's still not full context
And even then, it still doesn't make sense because unless you actually believe Barry Zito is a sub 4 ERA pitcher from here on out, then you're overpaying because you can get similar production for way less commitment.
Context
"A replacement level team will be .300, and needs about 10-12 million$. The average payroll is say 75-80 million$. So, the extra 65-70 million$ will buy you (.500-.300)*162=32.4 wins, or about 2 million$ per win."
So to get to an average team (.500) via free agency costs about $80mm. Every win above that costs an extra $2mm/win (above replacement). Since there is a limit on the number of players on a team, you start with replacement go from there. If you have a lot of young players who are above replacement and haven't hit FA yet then you are beating the game (OAK, MIN) and if your team is full of FAs and that gets you your wins then you are paying more per win (NY,NY,BOS, LA, LAA, etc). The more you have in the budget, the more likely you are to be above average and get into postseason.
It's overpaying for him.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 27, 2006 6:36 AM PST up reply actions
Jeff...good luck on the trip
Here's the way I look at it. When you match up team A and team B and both have mediocre teams, one HAS to win. Whether its 16-15 or 2-1. Lets just hope our mediocrity is better than the others.
I can honestly say that I don not like the moves that have been made by the front office this offseason. I'm not suicidal over them however. I am just at a "lets wait and see".
I like the sound of getting Zito. Really I do. The biggest reason more than anything is he kicks our ass every time he pitches against us. Plus, he pitches well in the AL West. I would be happy if he came to Seattle, went 12-12 and every win was a division win. If you all remember correctly, our division record was absolute crap and we lost upwards of 20 straight at one point. If we do better in the division, I think we can compete for the AL West title. Look at the Seahawks. They are at the point of almost sucking, but again, they've made it to the playoffs and we all know that anything can happen once the playoffs begin.
My pitching optimism looks like this:
Zito signs for the 6/$96 that has been reported. Goes 15-12. Felix wins 18 games, Ramirez wins 10, Washburn wins 12 and Bautista wins 12. There's 67 wins by our rotation. Who wouldnt be happy with that?
'pitches well vs AL West'
Sounds like our entire pitching staff
by Mariner John on Dec 27, 2006 2:15 AM PST up reply actions
Feels a little like our parents are going
Hope Zito doesn't come to the M's cause that would probably ruin your vacation.
Re:Parents on vacation
Duuuuuuuddddeeeee.......PARTY!
Re:Parents on vacation
Though we did promise to barricade the door if the good Reverend tries to get in.
by Steve Nelson on Dec 26, 2006 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
Have Fun, Jeffy-boy!
Am I the only one here
by Slozbury Stouvre on Dec 26, 2006 11:00 PM PST reply actions
Let me also add that this is only if
by Slozbury Stouvre on Dec 26, 2006 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
I would be more excited about 2007
Sloz Stou
...but I as well have a part of me wishing to be satiated by a Zito signing for next year. It's the addictive part of my personality.
by Username2 on Dec 27, 2006 12:35 AM PST reply actions
Man if we could get him on a 1 year deal
Money would be no matter to me then. I don't care if he got paid $30 million for 2007, just as long as thats the only season he got paid.
Sadly, that has no basis in reality.
Hola
just a tip for you
It just makes it easier to read
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 28, 2006 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
Hey at least
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 28, 2006 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
Misspelling has never bothered me
"I am already pulled over I can't pull over any farther"
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 28, 2006 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
I can't either
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 28, 2006 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Hmmm
by Graham MacAree on Dec 28, 2006 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
Is niggly
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 28, 2006 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
Couldn't tell you
by Graham MacAree on Dec 28, 2006 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
I would say 90%
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 28, 2006 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
Engineers are a different bunch.
"You gonna start hitting on Gomez at the next LL night?"
I'm a pretend engineer
by Graham MacAree on Dec 29, 2006 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Why are you suffering through the schooling
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 29, 2006 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
Because
Turns out I can't, but at least I'll get my degree.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 29, 2006 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
What engineering are you doing?
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 29, 2006 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
Mixture of bio and structural
by Graham MacAree on Dec 30, 2006 12:53 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 30, 2006 1:51 AM PST up reply actions
chemical
by Steve Nelson on Dec 29, 2006 7:01 PM PST up reply actions
For all your ChemE coworkers
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 30, 2006 2:01 AM PST up reply actions
Chem E is on it's way I guess
Yeah there is no way we are even close
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 30, 2006 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
yeah,
It's funny
by Graham MacAree on Dec 31, 2006 12:57 AM PST up reply actions

by 










