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Step back from the ledge for Christmas, M's fans!

Hi all -

First post here.  I hope you're all enjoying your Holidays!  I've been an M's fan since Griffey's debut.  I get the impression that I'm one of the few people who is actually somewhat optimistic about this season. Here are some excerpts from stuff I've posted at baseballhq.com regarding the team:

Re: post-Soriano bullpen [one of the paid staff at BHQ called the M's pen "razor thin"]:
I really think that "razor thin pen" is quite overblown. This was a tremendous bullpen last year, and while they lost 2 quality arms (Lowe, Soriano) and Fruto, I still think this pen will hold leads unless Putz completely collapses (a possibility, but not one I'd consider likely).

Sherrill has a huge L/R split, and is very good at his role as a Lefty Specialist (no relationship to the BHQ member, I assume :>).
<><>
Alright, having the projections in a spreadsheet allows me to do fun things like compute the weighted average BVP of the relievers on a team (I summed up all the sub-4.0 IP/G pitchers, and weighted by IP). For the current projection file, this is 74 for the Mariners. Actually, that it's that good shocks even me (my gut tells me it's around average, perhaps slightly better if some things work out right), as it's the 2nd-highest in the majors! (The team which comes out #1 is even more shocking)

Of course, the SP rotation (totaling 944 IP) averages only "47", which betters only COL, KC, and WAS. I guess that's expected, since they have been hoarding the sort of pitchers who often out-pitch their BPV's (i.e. low-K).

Note: BHQ has a system of values called BPV's, and 50+ is considered good enough to start, and 75+ good enough to close.  It's a lot like "Stuff" ratings found elsewhere.

Re: Vidro deal (posted on baseballhq.com):
I really think that people are being pretty harsh on this deal for the M's. Consider:

In 1987, an oft-injured middle infielder was coming off seasons wherein he'd hit:

  1. .297/.356/.408 (576 AB) [age 28]
  2. .281/.340/.426 (437 AB) [age 29]
At this time, his career stats were: .291/.348/.418.

The next year, he hit .353/438/.566, finishing 5th in MVP voting. Spending significant time at DH for the first time (58 games), he still only managed 465 AB, probably keeping him from being higher in the MVP voting. As he played more frequently at DH later into his career, he became much less injury prone, and became a monster hitter, getting MVP votes in 6 other seasons.

Vidro's last two years:

  1. .275/.339/.424 (309/30)
  2. .289/.348/.395 (463/31)
At this time, his career stats are: .300/.363/.459.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that Vidro is going to hit like Paul Molitor after his move to DH, but this guy's been a quality hitter when healthy, and who's to say whether taking him out of the keystone won't be exactly what he needs? The daily abuse on catchers and 2bmen is brutal. And I think the TYPE of hitter Vidro is will play well in SAFECO. Signing righty power-hitting goombahs in Beltre and Sexson were the goofy moves, IMO, since building around players who are ill-suited for their home park seems illogical to me.

FWIW, Snelling, also, would have "fit" well into SAFECO, in my opinion. But - this never fails to get chuckles from the crowd - the Mariners are building a team to contend in 2007, and counting on a guy who has a history of missing so much time is very risky.
<><><>
Only time will tell, I guess. If the Vidro salary is the objectionable part, I can only argue that his career stats seem pretty nice to me. And besides, I haven't seen the M's make (or fail to make) moves based on money, so far. They seem to be getting the players they want, and paying them handsomely. I see Snelling and Fruto as flotsam that will provide only replacement-level play at the major-league level. Obviously, pitchers are tough to predict, so perhaps Fruto will do something, but I think he'll have to take a step up to get there. But let's level-set the players we're talking about here: Fruto didn't make either the BHQ org report, nor the John Sickels book last year at all. BHQ liked Snelling more than Sickels, rating him 10th in Seattle's org, while John gave him a "C", the lowest grade in the book. Coming off these not-great ratings, he proceeded to hit .216 with a .340 slugging in AAA, supposedly healthy for much of that time. Well, at least he hit .250 in the majors in 96 AB.

This deal was clearly a Vidro salary dump by the Nats, IMO. And even if Vidro doesn't improve, he's been worth 2.75 WARP1/season the past two years (two of his worst in his career, with his best being 8.0 and 7.7). So, they're paying his $6MM/yr. In an article, I suggested that $2MM/win is reasonable, and Tango's table assumes that teams pay $4MM/yr per win for free agents. So, he's either at about the right price, or very cheap.

[Someone had commented that Doyle should have just been used as DH instead of Vidro.]

By the way, I agree that Snelling should have been tried at DH if possible, and am baffled that the M's hadn't tried that before. I just think it would be ridiculous to do so at the MLB level, with as little as he's shown. Not every injury-prone hitter gets helped by playing DH, but some do. Molitor and Edgar Martinez were the first two that came to mind. I don't believe that Snelling has anywhere near the hitting skills to be a full-time MLB DH, though. BHQ projects a .265/.338/.397 line. Is that something worth getting worked up over? Much less playing at DH. His seemingly huge 2005 numbers were driven by [a BABIP] of 43%, and I don't trust them for a minute.

I thought the Soriano deal was quite reasonable, too. Starters the quality of Horacio Ramirez are pulling down $10MM/yr contracts now. I really don't understand why there is such widespread panning of this move. (see this article)

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I appreciate an optimist
But in the words of the wise sage Butthead: "You can't polish a turd, dude"

These are two trades that based on their reasoning and cost to likely benefit just cannot be justified. Harsh is paying 12 million for a player who has been in decline for 5 straight years. That money makes sense for 2000 vintage Vidro...that was a long time ago. I hope Vidro comes out kicking ass. I hope Ramirez puts up an incredible year. I hope the M's win the west and more, still even if all these things happen, these were still very bad trades. We are depending on pure luck to justify it.

by anotherjeff on Dec 25, 2006 8:32 PM PST   0 recs

Uhhhh ok
"I don't believe that Snelling has anywhere near the hitting skills to be a full-time MLB DH, though. BHQ projects a .265/.338/.397 line."

Then your BHQ system must have some flaws in it. Because your gonna have a pretty hard time convincing anybody that if Snelling were healthy and a full time DH that he would only put up a .735 OPS

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 25, 2006 8:42 PM PST   0 recs

Snelling projection
Drop Ron Shandler a note and let him know.  I posted the note on the BHQ forum, where everyone had that projection as a backdrop.  I run my own minor league translations, and Snelling comes out even weaker.  I hope I'm wrong and you're right, since Snelling is a good story and I'm rooting for him.  I just don't see it.

by BobbyMac on Dec 27, 2006 11:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

My projections
Grade him as significantly stronger, in the 800 OPS range this year.

by Graham on Dec 27, 2006 11:41 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I wonder how much those projections are influenced
by his fluky stint in AAA in 2006.

Never before in his professional career(besides his cup of coffee with the M's in 2002 at age 20) had Snelling put up an OPS below .750. And then all of a sudden he puts up a .666 in Tacoma.

We have discussed this before here, but the common is that it was more of him still recovering from the surgery and just being pissed that the M's haven't given him the shot he rightly deserved. It sure wasn't because of ability or talent.

If fully healthy and given a full time role at DH, the best case scenario for Snelling is .320/.420/.500. The worst case is part of him actually exploding. I think he's somewhere in the middle. Something more along the lines of .285/.365/.430. And that slugging is probably a little pessimistic. He has a lighting quick bat.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 28, 2006 12:12 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

The last thing I ran on my old computer:
Snelling '07: .284/.371/.465

I really should have taken the time to move my database and projection system onto my new laptop :/.

by Graham on Dec 28, 2006 12:56 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Comparing Catchers to Second Basemen?
Seriously; being a 2B is as strenuous as sqatting for 3 hours?

Not to be too much of a prick, but fans who don't see the ridiculousness of these two trades just end up enabling this crap to keep happening.

by John on Dec 25, 2006 10:12 PM PST   0 recs

2b/C
2bmen get their legs all messed up by the sliding ballplayers, and constantly jumping out of the way.  It's different, but the career curves are often similar, with a much lower percentage of second-basemen having long careers than less dangerous positions, such as OF, 1b, and even 3b/SS.

by BobbyMac on Dec 27, 2006 11:39 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah you give the example of Molitor and Edgar
But thats two players in almost two decades. I am sure that there are some others, but still, not good odds.

by Frerken on Dec 25, 2006 10:27 PM PST   0 recs

and really, those are pretty bad comparisons
Vidro has shown 4 straight years of obvious decline heading into this season at age 32.

Molitor was a player who was just coming into his own at age 30 and didn't really start to decline till he was 38.

Edgar put up good-great numbers before(93 doesn't count, he was injured), during, and after his age 32 seasons and didn't start to decline till his age 39 season. And even then he proceeded to put up OPS's of .888 and .895 till he pretty much dropped off in his final season.

Also, Vidro doesn't begin to even graze the talent level that Edgar and Molitor had.

Those comparisons and reasonings are pretty bad.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 25, 2006 11:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

'gar and Molly as examples...
I found the question of how often guys improved as hitters when moving to DH to be interesting.  So, I went to the historical data (through 2005, so Ortiz's 2006 stats weren't included), and found the following interesting facts:
  • Only 40 players had played 400+ games at DH(!)
  • Of those, 15 first played 100+ games at DH in a season between the ages of 28-34.
  • Those 15 are a pretty good group of hitters, going .285/.359/.464 (approx 6.31 RC27).
  • In the pre-DH seasons, these guys averaged .285/.353/.460 (~6.13 RC27).
  • In the DH+ seasons, these guys averaged .286/.367/.469 (~6.51 RC27).
  • All these guys played 1485+ AB both before and after the switch, except Ortiz post-DH, and he got there in 2006.
  • Some of these guys played significantly in the field after their first DH season, but all played a lot at DH, too.
Here are the names (with the +/- RC27 delta):
Baines (+0.962, age 28)
Baylor (+.274, age 29)
Canseco (+.585, age 29)
Chili Davis (+1.698, age 31)
Tommy Davis (-0.799, age 34)
Mike Easler (-0.210, age 33)
Willie Horton (-1.160, age 32)
Greg Luzinski (-0.711, age 30)
Edgar (+1.673, age 32)
Hal McRae (+0.598, age 30)
Paul Molitor (+0.806, age 34)
Tony Oliva (-2.058, age 34)
David Ortiz (+2.498, age 28)
Rusty Staub (-0.566, age 33)
Andre Thornton (-0.642, age 32)

Two things REALLY jump out at me: 1) the paucity of non-1b infielders on this list, except Molitor and Edgar.  And 2) even though these are all post-27 switches, there is an increase in offensive production.

by BobbyMac on Dec 28, 2006 1:03 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I think the reason for A
Is that in general, most GM's aren't crazy enough to try something like that.

Do you park/league/era adjust your numbers before you run the Runs Created formula, by the way?

by Graham on Dec 28, 2006 5:14 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Um
Wrong on many levels, but this is what gets me:

"Signing righty power-hitting goombahs in Beltre and Sexson were the goofy moves, IMO, since building around players who are ill-suited for their home park seems illogical to me."

Sexson is the type of right handed hitter who doesn't really get burned too much by Safeco, because he hits the ball soooo hard it will go out of anywhere. And then one of the reasons Beltre was so attractive to the M's was his demonstration of opposite field power in Chavez Ravine - it's easier to hit it out to right in Safeco than it is down in LA.

Also, BHQ is, um, wrong with their projection.

by Graham on Dec 26, 2006 12:43 AM PST   0 recs

Sorry dude
It's tough being an optimist around here.  Too many experts who think that the M's brass reads this blog, and that by posting rants they can actually influence front office decisions.  But I applaud your efforts... and it's comforting to hold onto some hope that Vidro will blossom as a DH, even if it's not terribly likely.

by johnbai on Dec 27, 2006 2:00 PM PST   0 recs

I'm pretty sure Jeff doesn't post what he does
because he thinks he can influence the FO decisions.

Everybody knows that the FO could give a damn what the fans think, and that includes all of us.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 27, 2006 3:09 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

What the hell is wrong with you?
I mean, you're an idiot, sure, but then you randomly assign people false motives.

by Graham on Dec 27, 2006 10:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Oh relax
I'm just poking fun.  ;)

See... my little winky face proves it!

by johnbai on Dec 27, 2006 3:13 PM PST   0 recs

OK, but what if
Sherrill gets traded to the Yankees.  Do you still like the bullpen then?
visiting A's fan (Shoreline resident)

by iglew on Dec 27, 2006 6:40 PM PST   0 recs

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