The Hidden Truth About Jose Vidro
Talk to any analyst about this trade and they'll all tell you the same thing - it's stupid to trade a cheap, young, productive hitter along with a talented arm for an expensive, old, and declining hitter in return. I should know; I did. And it's a difficult point to argue when presented with the following:
- .293 EqA
- .278
- .271
- .263
I don't think EqA really tells the right story in this case, though. Check out the following numbers:
'00-'04, Home: .338/.400/.519
'00-'04, Road: .292/.358/.464
'05-'06, Home: .254/.326/.354
'05-'06, Road: .308/.361/.450
Look how close the road splits are. Now look at the home numbers. For five years he's Bobby Abreu at home, but then he hits his 30th birthday and turns into Jeremy Reed.
The reason, of course, is environment. Pretty much Jose Vidro's entire career has been defined by his home ballpark; in the hitter-friendly confines of Olympic Stadium/Hiram Bithorn he looked like an underrated star on an unknown team, but moving to the cavernous RFK transformed him into an albatross that Bowden couldn't give away (until, y'know). Perception wasn't reality, though, as Vidro was a remarkably similar hitter once he stepped out into normal stadiums across all six years. There are slight differences, but nothing even approaching the magnitude suggested by EqA. Jose Vidro was never as good as his peak raw numbers looked, but at the same time he wasn't as bad in Washington as many would have you believe. Myself included (prior to your reading this right now).
More illuminating than Vidro's split batting lines, though, might be his split ball-in-play data. Observe (Fangraphs only goes back to 2002):
'02-'04, Home: 1.65 GB/FB, 22.3% LD, 12.1% HR/FB, 33.9% XBH
'02-'04, Road: 1.78 GB/FB, 19.3% LD, 12.1% HR/FB, 31.7% XBH
'05-'06, Home: 0.97 GB/FB, 25.2% LD, 4.3% HR/FB, 25.8% XBH
'05-'06, Road: 1.90 GB/FB, 21.2% LD, 8.6% HR/FB, 31.5% XBH
The thing that stands out to me the most? Where Vidro has typically been a fairly extreme groundball hitter, RFK completely altered his approach. For some completely counter-intuitive reason he went to Washington and kept trying to lift the ball. His line drives were up, which is cool, but all those fly balls were getting eaten alive by the enormous outfield, and his numbers suffered as a result. Maybe it was a mental thing, like Mike Cameron with Safeco. I can't say. All I know for sure is that RFK changed more than Jose Vidro's numbers; it changed his batting style.
But it didn't carry over. The minute he stepped foot into another ballpark he was remarkably similar to the guy he was years earlier, putting the ball on the ground and finding enough holes to post a .300+ batting average. So whatever RFK did to Jose Vidro's brain, he was able to block it out "81" times a year (with 81 being in quotes because never in anyone's wildest dreams would Jose Vidro be healthy enough to appear in every road game of the season). That's encouraging, because it means he won't be bringing any baggage to Seattle. In theory, it should be like RFK never happened.
Of course, there are still a few problems:
(1) If Vidro was spooked by RFK's spacious dimensions, Safeco won't be much of a break. It's a better hitting environment, particularly when he's up against righties, but it's still huge, so we might see a relapse.
(2) A .308/.361/.450 batting line (equivalent to his '05/'06 road splits, not accounting for Safeco) is substandard for a DH. Chris Snelling himself posted a .360 OBP in limited time last year, and he's going to cost one-gazillionth as much. If you're going to pay a lot of money for two or three years of a positionless bat, you should probably make sure said positionless bat is good. For a DH, Vidro isn't.
(3) He's 32 and trending poorly. Again, Vidro's EqA overstates his decline, but he is walking less and hitting for less power than he used to. On top of that, I question how well a groundball hitter is going to age when he basically doesn't even have knees anymore. Ichiro makes it work, but then Ichiro runs like the wind, whereas Vidro runs like a suitcase.
If Jose Vidro somehow manages to stay completely healthy and staves off further decline for the next three years, he's a slightly below-average DH getting paid something like $6m a season. That makes this look like a stupid trade.
If Jose Vidro gets hurt, gets worse, gets spooked by Safeco, or any combination of the three, he's a godawful DH getting paid something like $6m a season. That makes this look like an unthinkably retarded trade.
If nothing else, though, at least the former has better odds of happening than I gave it credit for after first hearing about the deal. I thought Vidro's decline was worse than it really was; for as long as he's been in the Majors he's been a reasonably productive bat in average ballparks. So at least there's that.
Short of a failed physical (DEAR GOD PLEASE), there's no salvaging this deal. The point will always remain that you don't trade talented cheap players for old second basemen to serve as DH. You can only evaluate trades based on the information you have at the time, and at the time this looks unforgivable. All we can do at this point is root for Jose Vidro to be the best damn baseball player he can be for as long as he's a Mariner. And based on the splits, he should be a little better than his recent raw numbers would suggest.
So, ignoring every last shred of context, at least Jose Vidro's going to provide a bunch more runs from the DH slot than the three-headed monster we ran out there in 2006. That's one thing to be a little happy about. It's also the only thing to be a little happy about, and the effect is diminished since we could've said the same thing for Snelling, Broussard, or Morse, but using last year as a benchmark, I suppose we could've done worse.
I feel queasy.
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Heh
I liken it to the musicians on the Titanic. You know your going down with the ship, you know everyone listening's going down, but you still play on, hoping that you can bring some calm to the masses before it happens. The musics not changing the end result, but play on damnit, play on!
Which makes the new LL logo so appropiate
Sigh
Great post.
BTW, where did ya get the BIP splits?
by jojo on Dec 15, 2006 8:10 PM PST reply actions
Fangraphs game logs
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 15, 2006 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
Heh
Vidro's flight from Puerto Rico to Miami had to be cancelled, and he's now not expected to travel to the U.S. until Sunday night. Assuming that he passes his physical, the deal sending him to Seattle for Chris Snelling and Emiliano Fruto should be announced Monday."
Ok, which one of you guys flew down to Puerto Rico and screwed with his plane?
Thats pretty funny
Thats pretty funny
Don't even joke about that.....
the deal is with the Nats,
the Nats are in Washington,
Washington is where the feds hang out,
the feds wear black suits,,
men in black suits can make you disappear....
:-P
by jojo on Dec 15, 2006 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
I wonder if . . .
No, they'd make so that no matter what game you
Now THATS torture!
Not quite ready to move on.
I have been reading articles and comments over at Federal Baseball. They are penciling Snelling in as the #2 hitter behind Felipe Lopez and ahead of Nick Johnson and Ryan Zimmerman. That's a pretty good 1 thru 4. The lineup takes a nose-dive after that.
My younger bro moved out there a couple years ago. Maybe I have found an NL team to follow...
I guess by now we all know Bavasi is being mocked. Here is another shovel o' dirt from one of the comments:
Jeopardy Answer: Bill Bavasi, Wayne Krivsky.
Jeopardy Question: Who are two guys much dumber than Jim Bowden?
by KC @ Lookout Landing on Dec 16, 2006 12:07 AM PST reply actions
You know what really pisses me off?
by jojo on Dec 16, 2006 3:20 AM PST reply actions
Somehow, I am not reassured.
Considering the number of hitters who get eaten alive by Safeco, this is bad news in my book. I worry that we've onn the verge of acquiring the non-tattooed,non-white trash girlfriend version of Player A- and like him and Jeff Cirillo, we're going to be paying for him to play baseball for some other team before his contract's up.
by eponymous coward on Dec 16, 2006 9:06 AM PST reply actions
My only hope
But I could be wrong.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2006 9:09 AM PST up reply actions
maybe someone's already brought this up
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 16, 2006 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
I'm inclined to think so, yes.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2006 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
You mean like Player A? Or C-Rex?
Of course, if that's happening and Snelling and Fruto are productive for the Nats, Bavasi's toast, so there is an upside, I guess...
by eponymous coward on Dec 18, 2006 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
right because things like on-field performance
This is why
Lincoln isn't going back on what he said.
by eponymous coward on Dec 19, 2006 12:09 AM PST up reply actions
Well at least we're not the only ones
The Royals traded Andrew Sisco to the White Sox today for backup first basemen Ross Gload.
Now granted, Sisco had a crappy year last year, but he's only 23, he's left handed, and still got plenty of time to be pretty good.
At least Rameriz might be halfway useful to us. Gload is gonna do nothing but add to the layer of blockage being piled on their Huber.
Now why would they do that?
Anyway, good for Sisco. The KC defense is awful, relievers have had good fortune with the ChiSox (Matt Thornton, anyone?), and his numbers should likely improve away from the Royals... except, obviously, when he's playing the Royals, LOL.
That's the thing about this trade
Horacio: Jarrod as Vidro:Everett
sigh
JD Drew is reported to have failed his physical in Boston.
Good
by Graham MacAree on Dec 17, 2006 12:35 AM PST up reply actions
If true
This isn't the same thing
This is why I should chase rumours down
by Graham MacAree on Dec 17, 2006 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
Is it wrong that I think a hurt JD Drew
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2006 10:09 PM PST up reply actions
As an A's fan, all I can say is:
Admittedly we aren't well stocked with what Bavasi covets most -- overpaid mediocre veterans -- but we can give you Jay Witasick for Adam Jones.
Well you've got Eric Chavez and Jason Kendall
Sorry
Spooked
Maybe Vidro suffered similarly. I don't know.
If there's one thing to point to that makes a move to DH seem beneficial and tenable, it's summed up in this really nice Vidro review at another Nats blog. Both seasons in DH, he started off hot (in '05, hot with power) before injuries shot him down and were exacerbated by having to contend with second base upon his return. It's probably unrealistic to believe this will account for the entire production gap between his peak and his '04-06 decline (or that he'll stay healthy even as a DH; he was also tweaky on the base paths), but he's generally speaking a very smart hitter and could be a pleasant surprise to M's fans, leaving aside the impact of his production from the DH spot and the money/talent relinquished to get him. (Fingers crossed on the physical!)
Anyway, there's been some good reading here and at USSM about the trade. I feel a bit guilty about being happy about the trade, seeing as Vidro was a mainstay of the franchise, but that was a city (or two) ago; it only feels like a lifetime.
by Federal Baseball on Dec 18, 2006 11:12 AM PST reply actions
After thinking about it more
He's a hitter with a good eye and has gets most of his value from hitting singles and doubles. He's never really been a huge home run hitter. Hopefully more time at DH will give him more rest and will allow him to have a better year than last year. Maybe he'll even use his veteran status to teach some of the kids some patience and show them how to take some pitches.
Moving to Safeco will probably help him out since as Jeff noted it appears that RFK has totally messed him up as a hitter. I wouldn't be surprised to see him put together a decent year of 300/370/450 next year as a DH if he can stay healthy. His power is declining and I really wish we still had Snelling but he won't be the death of our lineup.
As long as we can stay decently healthy and keep the Rivera ABs to a minimum, I think our lineup could be very solid and probably in the top half of the teams in the AL. Maybe an average OPS of 775.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2006 10:38 PM PST reply actions
I'll go a step farther
270/350/450 or bust, Vidro.
Yeah I agree
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 19, 2006 11:38 PM PST up reply actions

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