Posting Fees, why they are evil, and solutions

by TheEmrys on Dec 13, 2006 10:24 AM PST Comment 24 comments

Posting fees do not count against Luxury Tax. It goes against everything the psuedo-salary cap is supposed to do. In the current (insane) situation, the cash-laden Boston Red Sox bid $50m (lump sum? over a year?) for the right to talk to Matsuzaka. Kansas City had no chance in this bidding. In all honesty, most teams had no chance. Only the big-market/spend-happy-ownership could even contemplate this move.

An equilibrium must be achieved. There are two viable solutions, as far as I can see.

Have the posting fee count towards the Luxury Tax.

-or-

Restructuring of the posting fee process. One way this can be accomplished is through MLB paying the posting fee to the JBL. The money for this would come out of the Luxury Tax. Yes, this will reduce the tribute given to KC and Pittsburg, but at least these teams would be on more even footing vis-a-vis japanese baseball players.

While KC could not have spent $60m this year (total) for Matsuzaka, they could have taken the $10m they gave Meche (which matches the purported amount the Red Sox are paying Matsuzaka) and at least come close.

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Ya I feel so bad for the those poor Royals

any team that gives 55 million to Meche deserves to be in last place for the next 10 years

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 13, 2006 10:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Kanas City lost the right to bitch about money the instant they signed Meche to that insane contract.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 13, 2006 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I've gotten good laughs

at the expense of all the KC fans that I have become friends with. They are crying over this one...

I've only been bit back once...but it hurt...bad. He invoked the name of Dino Man, Washburn, and Soriano within a span of 10 seconds.

by anotherjeff on Dec 13, 2006 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Royals and Meche

An example of a small mentality deal, not a small market deal.

The posting process sucks. But, why should it be fair? Life isn't fair. I don't want what the guy in the office has, I want more. If I have more, I want even more, so I'll always have more. Reality bites.

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 13, 2006 10:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

There's no problem with posting fees

An equilibrium must be achieved.

Why? Before this season, the last time a posting of any significance/expensiveness occurred was Ichiro. Two expensive postings in six years does not indicate there's a problem that needs to be solved.

If the posting process were made easier/less expensive/more equitable, it would pretty much ruin the Japanese league, because most Japanese teams would want to sell their players to the highest bidder as soon as they're eligible, which would be a bad thing.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 13, 2006 11:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Disconnect....

Quote:
If the posting process were made easier/less expensive/more equitable, it would pretty much ruin the Japanese league, because most Japanese teams would want to sell their players to the highest bidder as soon as they're eligible, which would be a bad thing.
/end quote

This doesn't have anything to do with anything I posted, nor is it logical. If the fear that Japanese players would leave en masse because their teams were going to sell them, it would already be happening. Restructuring the process would not hurt the Japanese teams at all. Their rules will stay in place, they would simply negotiate with MLB and settle on a price rather than have individual teams pay whatever amount outside of the Luxury Tax.

I see no way giving a US team, like KC, a better chance to land a Japanese player will kill Japanese baseball.

If it were simply a matter of auctioning off Japanese players, it would already be happening. Tampa Bay and KC could surely find some better players from Japan right now. It isn't happening now, it wouldn't happen with any restructuring I mentioned.

by TheEmrys on Dec 13, 2006 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There isn't that many Japanese players

that would make a instant impact

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 13, 2006 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Did you not notice Tampa Bay

Winning a posting bid all of a month ago?

by Graham on Dec 13, 2006 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

TB

I have to admit, I don't follow Tampa Bay like I should.....

by TheEmrys on Dec 13, 2006 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You should start.

They're going to be really, really good before too long.

by Jeff on Dec 13, 2006 12:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

When are their pitching prospects due to hit MLB?

It's impossible to avoid the hype about their position players but things are rather more covert on the pitching front.

by Alex B on Dec 13, 2006 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, it kinda does

It does have to do with what you posted, because it's a reason that the posting process will never be "fixed". Why would NPB want to make it easier for the US to buy up all their league's players?

I guess my issue is one of incentive. Right now, there's no incentive for Japanese teams to post anything but their best players; who would bid top dollar for (insert name of #5 starter on last-place NPB team here)? But, if it's easier to make money off a player, it seems that the Japanese teams would post a ton of guys every year, just to see who in MLB would bite and for how much.

I could be completely wrong on this, but it just doesn't seem like NPB would have an interest in making the barriers to entry into MLB any easier than they currently are...

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 13, 2006 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The market is what the market is

And the buyers set the market. It is obvious there isn't any collusion regarding the bidding, so there really isn't a problem. Teams bid what they can, what they feel is right and the market sorts itself out. Viva Free Market wisdom. Let them spend. Sooner or later teams will lock themselves up with poor contracts and money being paid to players that are not around any more and the other teams will catch up from a talent perspective. It is the will of a free market.

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 13, 2006 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Missing the point

If the Japanese baseball teams got rid of everyone good, their own market will dry up. They won't do that to themselves. AFAIK, the position they are in is more like a "last year in a contract trade for cash." It is usually one year before they can become a free agent, and want to get a return on it. They won't sabotage themselves. They will keep a balance, no matter what, because they know they need a good product on the field to keep butts in seats.... ick. Someone should cc: a few GM's out there.

by TheEmrys on Dec 13, 2006 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I get the point...

I just don't agree with it. I do not agree that equilibrium must be established....it will be, over time, as the market creates equilibrium. The market in Japan is not about to become diluted because of one signing...or several.

Baseball has become a global sport and a global market. There is no need to set trade limits or tariffs here any more than there is to set them elsewhere.

Forcing equality in any market forces mediocrity. Communist and socialist economies fail because of this type of standard.

How can we say what is good for the Japan market and force it upon them by changing our market? A few players signed here, a small percentage of the total players in the league. I would be willing to bet there are more Americans in Japan playing baseball than Japanese players on American rosters.

Once again, let the economics of the situation dictate where it goes, not a ruling. Too many people try to control too many aspects of life and business. And, yes, this is a personal philosophical approach to all of life. Stop regulating life. We all make decisions and live with the outcome. If Boston gets buried by this expenditure, so be it.

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 13, 2006 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

Markets are like water - they find their level. You may not agree with that level, but that's not the market's problem.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 13, 2006 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

It will take a contraction in the market via smaller revenues, but it will come and when it does smaller contracts will follow. The revenue stream cannot support the spending forever. It takes media dollars, sales of team items, and asses in the seats (which requires a winner in many markets) to support the team. Eight dollar beers alone will not do it when there are a million less people a year there to consume them.

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 13, 2006 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hello?

Did you not notice Tampa Bay winning the posting rights to players TWO YEARS IN A ROW? Or did the fact that another Seibu pitcher, Shinji Mori, came over last year, just go over everyone's head because the posting fee was only like $750k (and he got injured in spring training with the Devil Rays)?

Also, there is a LOT of talk in Japan about how the MLB is stealing all their best stars. If it doesn't happen via posting, it happens via free agency (or weird bizarre release cases like Tadahito Iguchi). Some guys (like Katsuya Nomura, or Bobby Valentine) are a LOT more outspoken about it than others, who seem to take a "it can't be helped" attitude and a "we should cheer for Japanese players in America... nevermind that all of our fans are sitting at home watching MLB games on TV now instead of coming to the parks here..."

It IS a problem, and it doesn't seem likely to stop any time soon. And the posting money doesn't even necessarily make up for it. Ichiro's old team ceased to exist for the most part three years after he came over here, as the Blue Wave could no longer draw anyone to their games, and merged with the Kintetsu Buffaloes.

Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on Dec 13, 2006 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe that is what the free market is

all about. IBM damn near went broke because they couldn't keep up in the market. Sometimes teams, like companies, fold. If the economics do not support them, bummer. It is just that no one gets emotional over a company, except those losing their jobs and everyone loves "their" team.

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 13, 2006 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But see here's the thing

MLB isn't stealing any of their players. They are CHOOSING to come over here. It's not like MLB teams are holding a gun to the players heads.

It's not MLB's fault that Japan's league isn't good enough to substain it's own players.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 13, 2006 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I really should just never read these threads

It is, however, MLB's fault that salaries have gotten so incredibly retardedly inflated here that the average player here makes ten times more than the average player there.

I wouldn't say it's a matter of "good enough" so much that there's this perception that guys have to go "prove themselves" in the MLB.

Marinerds - a different daily dose of baseblog.

by Deanna on Dec 13, 2006 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's certianly true.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 13, 2006 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Once again, the market is set by the

buyers and sellers.

MLB, sadly, has no bearing on what individual corporate entities are willing to pay players, or charge you and I at the ballpark.

Like it or not, the market is set by those willing to come here, the teams that sell the rights to negotiate with them (as if they are slaves, being sold), and the teams willing to pay the posting fees.

Would I like to see lower salaries? Yes. Would I like to see lower ticket prices? Yes. Would I like it to not cost a fortune to attend a game? Yes. Would I like all of this at the expense of giving up free market principles? No. The market will eventually correct, just as inflated housing prices do, just as gold and stocks do.

Sadly, this becomes an emotional issue, because of team and sport loyalties.

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 13, 2006 3:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs