Jeff Sullivan featured at Baseballanalysts.com
Since Jeff seems to humble, here's a plug for his article over at the Baseballanalysts site:
"A Quantitative Approach to Studying Release Point Consistency" features the analysis by screenshots, that we are familiar with.
Here's the link:
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/01/a_quantitative_1.php
0 recs |
32 comments
Comments
Heh.
by Jeff on Jan 19, 2006 12:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Man....
by kenshin1 on Jan 19, 2006 1:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
<sigh>
by kenshin1 on Jan 19, 2006 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
Jeff's attempts at "open sourcing" this info are nice, but ignore the fact that others have done this better elsewhere. He also ignores the research that shows that release point itself is all but irrelevant, rendering any of this useless.
I'm not sure what your relationship with Will is, Jeff, but I'm curious to know if you knew of this research. I read Will's comment (however harsh it is) and take it that he's assuming you a) knew of both the release point and the Dartfish research in the first place and b) were actively ignoring those two sets of data. I'm assuming that the whole point of this study was because you didn't.
Either way, that's a pretty lofty, snooty comment from Will. Tangotiger's damn straight in putting Will in his place.
by PositivePaul on Jan 19, 2006 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
Good article, surprising snootiness from Will Carroll. Either way, good article. :) I always enjoy reading your pitching analysis posts, so it's good to see them getting out there in the world.
by Deanna on Jan 19, 2006 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As I told Will in an email...
by Jeff on Jan 19, 2006 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What do....
by kenshin1 on Jan 19, 2006 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: What do....
by Jeff on Jan 19, 2006 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the most on-topic research
They've got a one paragraph summary of a study on changes in pitching biomechanics within a game (seems pretty analogous). This is basically tangotiger's point: this stuff isn't available. You've got a brief note about how their looking at biomechanics at release (though, to be fair, not at arm placement at release), so it's not like we can conclude much. This is either a big research topic through the specialist journals, or its proprietary (Dartfish) - either way, that's basically irrelevant for fans.
I'm betting Will thought Jeff was trying to market or sell this somehow. That's clearly not Jeff's point; like the pitch-by-pitch data discussed here earlier, this stuff costs a lot and so we regular fans need proxies. Like, say, 'Under the Knife,' is a proxy for ASMI research on recovery times from various injuries. Even if Will thought Jeff was trying to make a fast buck, it came out incredibly dismissive and rude.
by marc w on Jan 19, 2006 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Uselessness" of release-point info...
Very counter-intuitive :-)
Just as an example, if an individual pitcher tends to drop his arm as he fatigues, then of course you could track this during the game, and make pitching switches that prevented injuries...
========
About 4 times in 5, when a "published" sabermetrician declares a end-the-discussion dogmatic blanket such as "RESEARCH HAS ABSOLUTELY SHOWN -- X" without sourcing it ... he's bluffing or misinterpreting.
Research has absolutely shown very few things in baseball, other than that if you score more runs on Friday night than you allow, you're going to win.
I'd bet 100:1 that there are all kinds of uses for release-point info, and I'd start with tracking pitchers year-to-year and within games against their own data. Carroll's shameful reply to Sullivan's work is an example of what has a bee in my bonnet about that class of BP-style authors.
B'lee DAT,
Jeff C
by DrDetecto on Jan 20, 2006 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW ...
Even when initial research HAS suggested the null hypothesis, very often you've got a general-vs-specific thing going.
In other words, some amigo might run a study showing that NL-AL crossover players didn't show an "adjustment" year followed by a "bounce" year. But they'll forget that they're measuring a group ... and that an individual player (say, Adrian Beltre) or type of player might indeed show the effect.
Of course, when only 1 or 5 or 12 players show the effect, they'll cross it against the group, declare "sample size" issues and blow off the exceptions to the rule.
In other words, if Mark Prior drops his arm slot 10 pitches before getting lit up, you still might not see the tendency across the group of all MLB pitchers. Does that mean that the info is useless to the Cubs?
=======
As Jeff S is well aware, as an ex-pitcher, the state of pitching is so complex that it may be literally impossible to get our arms around it.
You simply can never isolate the variables. Do 120 pitches (or a dropped arm slot, or a wobbly release point) matter for young pitchers? Left-handed pitchers? Curveball pitchers? Pitchers who have thrown 150 innings that year? 112 pitches that day? Pitchers who have been in a close game that day? Tall pitchers? 94 mph+ pitchers?
The biggest problem with Carroll's general reaction (as to uselessness of release-point info) is that he shows little respect for (1) human intuition (Sullivan zero'ing on Prior's fatigue) and (2) the complexity of the problem in general.
But then, this debate about dogmatism in baseball didn't start this week. :-)
by DrDetecto on Jan 20, 2006 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dr D
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2006 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Dr D
by Jeff on Jan 20, 2006 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
If he regrets it, fine, end of story. I need about 12 mulligans a day, myself. :-)
Just the same, dogmatism continues to reign as the Orwellian enemy of sabermetrics (or any kind of scholarship). ;-) The entire industry needs a large, and quick, injection of "what don't I know here?" attitude.
Such as the attitude found at Lookout Landing.
Cheers,
Jeff
by DrDetecto on Jan 20, 2006 4:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure thing, Jeff!
We got your back!
by PositivePaul on Jan 20, 2006 6:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya Jeff
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 21, 2006 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A cult?
by Jeff on Jan 21, 2006 10:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we start with Thorton?
by Goose on Jan 21, 2006 11:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Wish...
Where's my car keys!
by PositivePaul on Jan 23, 2006 12:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh heh....
LOL!
by PositivePaul on Jan 23, 2006 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we're looking out for you (and landing)
by Deanna on Jan 22, 2006 2:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I must say
by I'm NOT Corco on Jan 19, 2006 7:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Am I reading this a lot differently from you guys
Am I really missing something here?
by Matthew on Jan 19, 2006 7:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
But
For regular people who can't see top secret stuff, Jeff's work is really cool.
by I'm NOT Corco on Jan 19, 2006 7:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And he had that
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2006 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
irrelevance
by toonprivate on Jan 19, 2006 8:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It seems
I think we need to figure out what signs indicate fatigue and are warning signs for elbow/shoulder damage and then use Jeff's method to look for them. If they're not release point, narrowly defined, then fine - what ARE they, and how do we measure them. Jeff's already got something of a head start in looking at things like the angle of a pitcher's torso at release - that's in the ASMI thing too. Now we just need a way to operationalize that using freely available tv feeds (those behind CF cameras may not be as useful).
I think Jeff's basic method is what's so important - it almost doesn't matter if you're looking at the hand or the knee or whatever. That he used overlaid images and tried to measure variability in them is the real innovation here. I don't give a crap if teams are purchasing studies using 160 high-speed cameras and measuring eleven 'kinematic parameters' at a cost of several thousand dollars. That means very little to anyone reading this blog.
by marc w on Jan 20, 2006 9:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff's study is relevant
Who was that other dude?
I can't remember...
and thats the point.
If Jeff finds a way to do it better than anyone else - and he may, since he is obviously coming at it from a different angle, so to speak - or cheaper than anyone else, or more available to the Mariners fans than anyone else, then he will have carved out his own niche.
And that is relevant.
by KC on Jan 19, 2006 9:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah....
anyway, that was your brief, tangential history lesson of the day.
by JY on Jan 19, 2006 11:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite quote....
Good thing he prefaced that with with "as a Cubs fan". Because that matters..
by BaltimoreMarinersFan on Jan 21, 2006 6:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

by 














